programmer for PLS100?

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programmer for PLS100?

Francesco Messineo
Hi all,
It's only sightly OT since these are used in quite a few CBM computers.
What programmer (even homemade ones if any) everyone here uses to
program Philips/Signetics PLS100?
Thanks

Frank IZ8DWF

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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Konrad B
I remember Christian mentioned one last month:

śr., 25 lip 2018 o 06:59 vossi <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
> Its easy for me to burn new pls100 for it with my topmax programmer.

Some of the Xelteks and BeeProgs can cope with them, but check if they
do not need adapters. Old Hi-Lo devices required one for PLS100 AFAIR.
Labtool48 (Advantech, now AEC) and its clone Dataman48 - do not
support PLS100 (while being able to deal with some other PLAs/PROMs).

Regards,
Konrad


śr., 29 sie 2018 o 15:16 Francesco Messineo
<[hidden email]> napisał(a):
>
> Hi all,
> It's only sightly OT since these are used in quite a few CBM computers.
> What programmer (even homemade ones if any) everyone here uses to
> program Philips/Signetics PLS100?
> Thanks
>
> Frank IZ8DWF
>

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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Francesco Messineo
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 3:59 PM Konrad B <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I remember Christian mentioned one last month:
>
> śr., 25 lip 2018 o 06:59 vossi <[hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > Its easy for me to burn new pls100 for it with my topmax programmer.

ok, addendum: not something that will never pay for itself ;)

Frank

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RE: programmer for PLS100?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
> ok, addendum: not something that will never pay for itself ;)

OK, EEtools sells it for $895,-. That made me wonder: I just checked Aliexpress and you can buy programmers as cheap as $20. I have a twelve year old Elnec LabProg+ with one disadavantage: it only works with a LPT port, something my laptop doesn't have. For this reason I got myself such a cheapo with USB and it works fine. So I wonder what justifies these $895? One could say it is like comparing an old Lada and a Rolls Royce but then I rather consider my cheapo to be a iX20, a car I'm very happy with.


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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Francesco Messineo
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 8:11 AM Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > ok, addendum: not something that will never pay for itself ;)
>
> OK, EEtools sells it for $895,-. That made me wonder: I just checked Aliexpress and you can buy programmers as cheap as $20. I have a twelve year old Elnec LabProg+ with one disadavantage: it only works with a LPT port, something my laptop doesn't have. For this reason I got myself such a cheapo with USB and it works fine. So I wonder what justifies these $895? One could say it is like comparing an old Lada and a Rolls Royce but then I rather consider my cheapo to be a iX20, a car I'm very happy with.

ok, does the "cheapo" usb actually program PLS100 chips? If so, what
model is it?

BTW, LPT port isn't a problem for me. I have still a few PCs with real
parallel port, even modern ones (albeit not laptops).

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Re: programmer for PLS100?

vossi
Hi, I like my TopMaxx. I have the old one with LPT.
You can get it at ebay sometimes for around 200-400 USD.
I use it with my DOS/Windows XP/7 Triboot-Notebook with docking-station.
It burns nearly everything - incl. 2532, 2716, PLS100N, GALs (incl. 26cv12)
and many old special controllers.
You never need an adapter!!!
It checks for bad connections and wrong direction to protect the devices! It
stops at overcurrent!

I also check DRAMs and SRAMs with it. Sadly it doesnt tests the 2114 - I
want to solder an adapter to test 4 x 2114 as 6116...

And it checks all my TTLs and CMOS-chips. For unknown TTLs I wrote my own
test-procedures in the software.

Christian





-----
greets
Christian
--
Sent from: http://cbm-hackers.2304266.n4.nabble.com/

greets
Christian
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RE: programmer for PLS100?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Francesco Messineo
Hallo Francesco,


> ok, does the "cheapo" usb actually program PLS100 chips?

Unfortunately not. I only found out that both programmers cannot handle it after receiving three new ones to be used in some C64s. So I gave the guy three original PLAs so he could carry on.
One idea was using an old EPROM programmer I had and where I had to write the software for myself:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?65484-How-to-program-a-82S100-PLS100


> .... (albeit not laptops).

For this reason I still have an old Dell D610 (IIRC) laying around in case the LabProg is needed at meetings etc.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Christian Dirks
Am 30.08.2018 um 10:36 schrieb Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud):

> One idea was using an old EPROM programmer I had and where I had to write the software for myself:
> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?65484-How-to-program-a-82S100-PLS100
>

These datasheets may be helpful, if you still want to write your own
programming software:

http://www.idealine.info/CBM/PLS100/


Christian

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RE: programmer for PLS100?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hallo Christian,


> http://www.idealine.info/CBM/PLS100/

Thank you! The ones I saw so far where like the 1986 datasheet. The 1975 datasheet explains all quite clearly. Now see what we can do about several things like the 18V programming voltage.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org





De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Francesco Messineo
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:07 PM Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hallo Christian,
>
>
> > http://www.idealine.info/CBM/PLS100/
>
> Thank you! The ones I saw so far where like the 1986 datasheet. The 1975 datasheet explains all quite clearly. Now see what we can do about several things like the 18V programming voltage.

and 10V too.

If the 82S100 where still widely available (or could be "erased"), I
might try to come up with a programmer, but I would surely fry quite a
few of them in the testing phase, so I will probably look for
ready-made alternatives.

Frank

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Re: programmer for PLS100?

MiaM
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Den Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:02:19 +0000 skrev "Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)"
<[hidden email]>:

> > ok, addendum: not something that will never pay for itself ;)
>
> OK, EEtools sells it for $895,-. That made me wonder: I just checked
> Aliexpress and you can buy programmers as cheap as $20. I have a
> twelve year old Elnec LabProg+ with one disadavantage: it only works
> with a LPT port, something my laptop doesn't have. For this reason I
> got myself such a cheapo with USB and it works fine. So I wonder what
> justifies these $895? One could say it is like comparing an old Lada
> and a Rolls Royce but then I rather consider my cheapo to be a iX20,
> a car I'm very happy with.

There is a difference between professional and hobbyist programmers.
The professionals is at least supposed to adhere to standards better,
both from a hardware and software point of view.

I don't know nothing about the ones you mention, but for example having
hardware to support applying any supported voltage to any pin costs
more than only having hardware to supply voltage to the pins that most
IC's use.

Also for a professional programmer you can count on that the power
supply actually works even if you want to program a 2716 or any
other ancient IC which wants long program pulses and 25V DC at a rather
high current.

If you are looking for a second hand good quality programmmer I thing I
would recommend a Data-IO Unisite but (using extreme ESD precaution)
remove the hard disk if it has one, and replace at least one disk drive
with a gotek. If it's complainging about a broken driver board at
boot, you can move the driver boards around and leave an empty slot at
the right end, and "only" be able to program IC's with a few pins less
than the maximum supported. IIRC it supports 64 pin IC's so you can
remove quite a few boards before it becomes unusable. At the time it
was new it was state of the art, but nowdays especially having a hard
disk but also DD 3,5" floppys is more of a liability. The fact that it
has it's own 68k CPU and running the code internally is a guarantee
that the timing for all algorithms is correct though.

--
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(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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RE: programmer for PLS100?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Francesco Messineo
Hallo Frank,

> and 10V too.

18 V _and_ 10V: I start to understand why not many programmers supported it.


Hallo Mia,

> If you are looking for a second hand good quality programmmer ...

I have this one: https://www.elnec.com/en/products/device-programmers/labprog-plus/ 
I want to start to tinker with the AtMega128 and just read that the LabProg+ probably won't support it. OTOH I bought a two dollar USB/ISP device usable for various AtMega device like the 644 and 1228 used by SD2IEC and similar devices. 999 Euro for its up-to-date successor is quite steep.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org





De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged.
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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Peter Bortas
A cheap tl866 can do VPP of 9.8V, 17.1V or 18.5V. Might be close enough.

/Peter
On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 7:54 AM Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hallo Frank,
>
> > and 10V too.
>
> 18 V _and_ 10V: I start to understand why not many programmers supported it.
>
>
> Hallo Mia,
>
> > If you are looking for a second hand good quality programmmer ...
>
> I have this one: https://www.elnec.com/en/products/device-programmers/labprog-plus/
> I want to start to tinker with the AtMega128 and just read that the LabProg+ probably won't support it. OTOH I bought a two dollar USB/ISP device usable for various AtMega device like the 644 and 1228 used by SD2IEC and similar devices. 999 Euro for its up-to-date successor is quite steep.
>
>
> Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen
>
> www.Baltissen.org
>
>
>
>
>
> De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
> geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te
> nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit
> e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken.
> Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige
> overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij
> overgebrachte virussen.
>
> APG Groep N.V. is gevestigd te Heerlen en is ingeschreven in het
> handelsregister van de Kamer van Koophandel Limburg onder nummer 14099617
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged.
> It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient.
> If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by
> return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its
> contents to any person. We don't accept liability for any errors, omissions,
> delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a
> result of e-mail transmission.
>
> APG Groep N.V. is registered in the trade register of the Chamber
> of Commerce Limburg, The Netherlands, registration number: 14099617

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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Ruud
Hallo Peter,


> A cheap tl866 can do VPP of 9.8V, 17.1V or 18.5V. Might be close enough.

The question is: can it do it on different pins at the same time?
But if the program doesn't support the IC itself and there is no way
you can change that in some way, then it is nice-to-know but useless
information.

IMHO the EPROM solution, and then using a faster FlasRAM instead,
for the C64's PLA is not a bad solution after all.


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: programmer for PLS100?

Peter Bortas
On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 5:18 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > A cheap tl866 can do VPP of 9.8V, 17.1V or 18.5V. Might be close enough.
>
> The question is: can it do it on different pins at the same time?

No, unfortunately not.

> But if the program doesn't support the IC itself and there is no way
> you can change that in some way, then it is nice-to-know but useless
> information.

We are working on fixing that. See https://github.com/ProgHQ

Don't get any hopes up yet for programming though. The project is less
than 5 months old, TL866 firmware and support is furthest along, but
general programming is not there yet. It's really useful for dumping
old PROMs though since there is a Python API for bit banging.

I'm mentioning it mostly in case someone finds themselves with spare
time and want to help with development.

Regards,
--
Peter Bortas