WTD: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

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WTD: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

B Degnan
Hi - I am working on an SX-64 that has a blank screen upon boot up.  It
will run some carts, but not all.  I cannot load diskettes, but the light
does come on briefly upon start up like you would expect.  I was able to
load and play Jupiter Lander cart, and more importantly run the C64/C128
Diagnostic Dead Test Cart (part # 314139-01).  The diagnostic returned Zero
page OK, Stack page OK, RAM and sound tests OK.  Interestingly I could not
get a different diagnostic cart to load, the "Commodore C-64 Diagnostic
Cartridge" P/N 314061-01.  This is a nice diagnostic cart because it has an
SX-64 detection and diagnostic routine.  I have other carts like Pac Man
and Spy Hunter that did not load either.

According to zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt the symptoms I have reported
indicate (but not conclusively) that the problem is with chip UD3 - the
251104-01 Kernal ROM.

Is this chip interchangeable with a regular C-64 Kernal ROM?  I would
think... maybe?  I know that there are versions of the chip and maybe only
the newer C64's would have something compatible.  If so, what is the chip
number?

Does anyone have a spare 251104-01 or the equivalent for trade/sale?  I
have plenty of regular C64's and other systems that I can borrow from.

Thanks.

Bill Degnan


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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Scott McDonnell-2
I would definitely agree with that diagnosis. However, before you start
looking for a replacement, have you opened the SX-64 and made sure all
the chips are pushed into their sockets completely? The case of the
SX-64 is pretty good at twisting the boards and eventually popping chips
out of sockets. Especially after shipment!

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of B. Degnan
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: WTD: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)


Hi - I am working on an SX-64 that has a blank screen upon boot up.  It
will run some carts, but not all.  I cannot load diskettes, but the
light
does come on briefly upon start up like you would expect.  I was able to

load and play Jupiter Lander cart, and more importantly run the C64/C128

Diagnostic Dead Test Cart (part # 314139-01).  The diagnostic returned
Zero
page OK, Stack page OK, RAM and sound tests OK.  Interestingly I could
not
get a different diagnostic cart to load, the "Commodore C-64 Diagnostic
Cartridge" P/N 314061-01.  This is a nice diagnostic cart because it has
an
SX-64 detection and diagnostic routine.  I have other carts like Pac Man

and Spy Hunter that did not load either.

According to zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt the symptoms I have
reported
indicate (but not conclusively) that the problem is with chip UD3 - the
251104-01 Kernal ROM.

Is this chip interchangeable with a regular C-64 Kernal ROM?  I would
think... maybe?  I know that there are versions of the chip and maybe
only
the newer C64's would have something compatible.  If so, what is the
chip
number?

Does anyone have a spare 251104-01 or the equivalent for trade/sale?  I
have plenty of regular C64's and other systems that I can borrow from.

Thanks.

Bill Degnan


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Re: WTD: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

RolfMiller
In reply to this post by B Degnan
 
In a message dated 1/8/2007 7:31:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

Is this  chip interchangeable with a regular C-64 Kernal  ROM?


Yes, but the screen color will be the standard blue rather than the SX-64  
green.  Rolf
 

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

ruud.baltissen
In reply to this post by B Degnan
Hallo Bill,


> Does anyone have a spare 251104-01 or the equivalent for
> trade/sale?

As the SX itself is rare IMHO, a spare ROM certainly will be. As Rolf already mentioned, a normal C64 ROM should work as well. A third solution is a 28-pins EPROM like the 2764 (or higher) plus a convertor socket. Last solution: I can burn you a Motorola 68674 (???), the EPROM version of the 2364. In that case you can plug this EPROM directly in the original socket.
As a trade I'm looking for the 6560, the NTSC-version of VIC-20 video chip. I have no idea if this chip is hard to find. If you cannot find it, a 6567 will do as well as I can use a spare for my US equipment.


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Re: WTD: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Spiro Trikaliotis
In reply to this post by RolfMiller
Hello,

* On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 01:41:53AM -0500 [hidden email] wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 1/8/2007 7:31:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>> Is this  chip interchangeable with a regular C-64 Kernal  ROM?
>
> Yes, but the screen color will be the standard blue rather than the
> SX-64  green.

Additionally, the tape routines are disabled in the SX64. For a test,
the C64 ROM might be enough, but I think in the long run, you should try
to find an original one, or, at least, make an EPROM if the image on
zimmers.net/FUNET.

Regards,
   Spiro.

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6560 chips

Marko Mäkelä-3
In reply to this post by ruud.baltissen
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:12:27AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> As a trade I'm looking for the 6560, the NTSC-version of VIC-20 video chip.

I bought a tube of 6560-101s in 1997 or so, from Jameco if I remember
correctly.  See the list archives if they go that far.  I'm glad to send
you as many chips as you'd like.

        Marko

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

MagerValp-2
In reply to this post by ruud.baltissen
>>>>> "RB" ==   <[hidden email]> writes:

RB> As the SX itself is rare IMHO, a spare ROM certainly will be. As
RB> Rolf already mentioned, a normal C64 ROM should work as well. A
RB> third solution is a 28-pins EPROM like the 2764 (or higher) plus a
RB> convertor socket. Last solution: I can burn you a Motorola 68674
RB> (???), the EPROM version of the 2364. In that case you can plug
RB> this EPROM directly in the original socket.

The SX-64 has a 28-pin ROM socket with a 2564 ROM, and not a 2364 like
the standard C64. You can plug a 2764 straight in, no adapter needed.

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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Nicolas Welte
In reply to this post by ruud.baltissen
[hidden email] wrote:
>> Does anyone have a spare 251104-01 or the equivalent for
>> trade/sale?
>
> As the SX itself is rare IMHO, a spare ROM certainly will be.

At least my own SXs have an 28pin EPROM socket for a 2564 type EPROM. I
don't think a 24pin ROM with above part number was ever made. Of course,
2564 EPROMs are also quite rare, but maybe not as rare as the Motorola
MCM68764/MCM68766 24pin EPROM.

BTW, for those who didn't find this yet, here are some MCM68766 for sale now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130065120898

Nicolas

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

ruud.baltissen
In reply to this post by MagerValp-2
Hallo Per,


> The SX-64 has a 28-pin ROM socket with a 2564 ROM, and not a 2364 like
> the standard C64. You can plug a 2764 straight in, no adapter needed.

Now you mention it, I vaguely remember something like this. But AFAIK these 28-pins sockets are equiped with the 'standard' 2364 ROMs, thus leaving the 4 top pins free.

OTOH I just found the pinouts of the 2564 (never saw them before) and it seems that it covers the pinout of the 2364. Now it is up to Bill to decide what he wants. But I think he is sound asleep right now so we have to wait a bit :)

Nicolas just confirmed the above. I'll check my stock of 2564's. I know I have some, maybe more then just some, but having no use for them I put them somewhere. If I have to program an EPROM, I prefer using a 2564 above a 68764 as I can use these in C64, VIC-20 and 1541 and Have no other use for the 2564.
Hmmm, I withdraw this last statement. With a bit of soldering some lines between some pins I can place a 2564 also directly in a 2364 socket! Again I did learn some thing today :)


For Marco: if you can miss one or two, you would make me happy!


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Stichting Pensioenfonds ABP is gevestigd te Heerlen en ingeschreven bij de Kamer van Koophandel Zuid Limburg onder nummer: 41074000


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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

MagerValp-2
>>>>> "RB" ==   <[hidden email]> writes:

MV> The SX-64 has a 28-pin ROM socket with a 2564 ROM, and not a 2364
MV> like the standard C64. You can plug a 2764 straight in, no adapter
MV> needed.

RB> Now you mention it, I vaguely remember something like this. But
RB> AFAIK these 28-pins sockets are equiped with the 'standard' 2364
RB> ROMs, thus leaving the 4 top pins free.

RB> OTOH I just found the pinouts of the 2564 (never saw them before)
RB> and it seems that it covers the pinout of the 2364. Now it is up
RB> to Bill to decide what he wants. But I think he is sound asleep
RB> right now so we have to wait a bit :)

The schematics:

  http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/251103_l.gif

says 2364 (2564) for the kernal ROM. I guess C= used both. I have a
(homemade Swedish JiffyDOS) 2764 in my SX-64 though.

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

ruud.baltissen
Hallo Per,


> says 2364 (2564) for the kernal ROM. I guess C= used both. I have a
> (homemade Swedish JiffyDOS) 2764 in my SX-64 though.

Which shouldn't be possible then. Unless you use a converter socket. If you think you don't use one, could you check the EPROM again, just to satisfy my (and likely others) curiousity? Many thanks in advance!


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De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken. Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij overgebrachte virussen.

Stichting Pensioenfonds ABP is gevestigd te Heerlen en ingeschreven bij de Kamer van Koophandel Zuid Limburg onder nummer: 41074000


The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its contents to any person. We don't accept liability for any errors, omissions, delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.

Stichting Pensioenfonds ABP, having its registered office at Heerlen, is registered in the Traderegister of the Chamber of Commerce Zuid Limburg (Maastricht), the Netherlands, registration number: 41074000





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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Nicolas Welte
In reply to this post by MagerValp-2
MagerValp wrote:
> The schematics:
>
>   http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/251103_l.gif
>
> says 2364 (2564) for the kernal ROM. I guess C= used both.

At least a 2364 (from the C64) will work in this socket!

This is not the case with one revision of the 8250LP/8296-D drive board.
One was made for 24pin ROMs of 2364 type, another one for the 28pin ROMs of
2564 type. Guess what, a 2364 ROM will not work in the latter case! It
seems they made use of the extra CS input that the 2564 offers. For
whatever reason ...

I had another similar problem with a 4040 drive. One ROM (2332 type) was
broken (blink 3 times), so I replaced it with a pin compatible (so I
thought) 2532 EPROM. The drive then responded with 5 blinks! I checked all
other socketed ICs, all were good. I had the 2114 RAMs in suspicion, but
didn't have time to unsolder them, so I put the drive away for some months.
Now when I had another look, I remembered a strange story someone told me.
He replaced a 2332 with a 2532 in a SuperPET, and the 6809 CPU wouldn't
work, because the 2332 has two CS inputs, but the 2532 only one! So guess
what, same thing in the 4040! Both inputs used! So I added a circuit to the
drive and now it can also use 2532 EPROMs. Two RAMs were also damaged,
after I changed them the drive is alive again :)

I made some pictures of the modification:
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000048.jpg
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000050.jpg

Nicolas

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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Spiro Trikaliotis
In reply to this post by ruud.baltissen
Hello,

* On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 11:40:13AM +0100 [hidden email] wrote:
 
 
> OTOH I just found the pinouts of the 2564 (never saw them before) and
> it seems that it covers the pinout of the 2364.

To add to the confusion: There was a manufacturer where the x2764y type
was really a 2564. You had to go for the x2766y to have a real 2764.

I don't remember exactly who it was. Perhaps Toshiba (with x=TMM)?

Regards,
   Spiro.

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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Marko Mäkelä-3
In reply to this post by Nicolas Welte
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 06:07:27PM +0100, Nicolas Welte wrote:

> Now when I had another look, I remembered a strange story someone told me.
> He replaced a 2332 with a 2532 in a SuperPET, and the 6809 CPU wouldn't
> work, because the 2332 has two CS inputs, but the 2532 only one! So guess
> what, same thing in the 4040! Both inputs used! So I added a circuit to the
> drive and now it can also use 2532 EPROMs. Two RAMs were also damaged,
> after I changed them the drive is alive again :)
>
> I made some pictures of the modification:
> http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000048.jpg
> http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000050.jpg

Neat! You could have saved me some time by telling where you added the
circuit.  Am I right that you installed a socket and a chip to the lower
right corner, right of UB2?  It's neat that all required signals were
available nearby.  Was it a completely empty socket (only Vcc and GND
connected)?  It's a pity that the consumer-grade Commodores did away
with this practice of having some prototyping area (or place for fixing
hardware bugs).

        Marko

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Re: 6560 chips

Marko Mäkelä-3
In reply to this post by Marko Mäkelä-3
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 11:14:17AM +0200, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:12:27AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> > As a trade I'm looking for the 6560, the NTSC-version of VIC-20 video chip.
>
> I bought a tube of 6560-101s in 1997 or so, from Jameco if I remember
> correctly.  See the list archives if they go that far.  I'm glad to send
> you as many chips as you'd like.

I have 4 of the 42 chips left.  I also found the original message from
the list archive, from January 1998.

>42  $.12    6560R2-101 ceramic; manufacturing code 2786 S (?) Did they
> really produce VIC-20 video chips as late as
> 1986?

Taking the shipping costs and the back-then exchange rate into account,
that'd be .67 FIM each, or .11 EUR.

I would like to keep one or two chips.  I have one unreliably working
NTSC VIC-20 circuit board, and I might want to convert one PAL VIC-20
to NTSC, like Pasi Ojala did.  So, Ruud, how many chips would you like
to have?

        Marko

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Re: 6560 chips

Leo-2
If anyone has a surplus of PAL vic20 kernal chips, Id like to get a couple
please. I could trade for NTSC stuff. Also If the dos gets dumped from that
third party disk drive that was discussed last week, I would like a copy of
that please. I think it was YIG dos or something? :) sorry, bad memory.

Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marko Mäkelä" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: 6560 chips


> On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 11:14:17AM +0200, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:12:27AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> > As a trade I'm looking for the 6560, the NTSC-version of VIC-20 video
>> > chip.
>>
>> I bought a tube of 6560-101s in 1997 or so, from Jameco if I remember
>> correctly.  See the list archives if they go that far.  I'm glad to send
>> you as many chips as you'd like.
>
> I have 4 of the 42 chips left.  I also found the original message from
> the list archive, from January 1998.
>
>>42  $.12    6560R2-101 ceramic; manufacturing code 2786 S (?) Did they
>> really produce VIC-20 video chips as late as
>> 1986?
>
> Taking the shipping costs and the back-then exchange rate into account,
> that'd be .67 FIM each, or .11 EUR.
>
> I would like to keep one or two chips.  I have one unreliably working
> NTSC VIC-20 circuit board, and I might want to convert one PAL VIC-20
> to NTSC, like Pasi Ojala did.  So, Ruud, how many chips would you like
> to have?
>
> Marko
>
>       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
>

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

MagerValp-2
In reply to this post by ruud.baltissen
>>>>> "RB" ==   <[hidden email]> writes:

MV> says 2364 (2564) for the kernal ROM. I guess C= used both. I have
MV> a (homemade Swedish JiffyDOS) 2764 in my SX-64 though.

RB> Which shouldn't be possible then. Unless you use a converter
RB> socket. If you think you don't use one, could you check the EPROM
RB> again, just to satisfy my (and likely others) curiousity?

I'm sorry but I don't have the desk space to disassemble the SX right
now. I'm 100% sure that mine came with a 2564 in a 28-pin socket, and
that I dropped a 2764 EPROM in there without a converter, but you'll
have to take my word for it.

Maybe someone else here has a disassembled SX-64 handy? Jbev?

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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Nicolas Welte
In reply to this post by Marko Mäkelä-3
Marko Mäkelä wrote:
>> I made some pictures of the modification:
>> http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000048.jpg
>> http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/im000050.jpg
>
> Neat! You could have saved me some time by telling where you added the
> circuit.  Am I right that you installed a socket and a chip to the lower
> right corner, right of UB2?  It's neat that all required signals were

Yes, that is UA2 (but unmarked). I installed an 74LS138 there. Also, I had
to clip the output pins of the original 74LS42 decoder, where most
connections go. I preferred this to cutting copper traces on the 4040
board. I had one trace cut to test another alternative, injecting Phi2
directly into an unused input of the LS42. That didn't work unfortunately.
Maybe the 6532 didn't like that signal. That's the extra wire you see on
the LS42.

> available nearby.  Was it a completely empty socket (only Vcc and GND
> connected)?  It's a pity that the consumer-grade Commodores did away
> with this practice of having some prototyping area (or place for fixing
> hardware bugs).

Yes, that socket was completely empty, except for the power supply.

I also made a circuit diagram of my modification:
http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/temp/4040ls138.gif

Nicolas

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RE: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

B Degnan
In reply to this post by B Degnan
All,
...Thanks to everyone who replied.  I am happy to use a regular C64 ROM.  I
have a 901227-02 / 1383 that should do the trick.  There is a 901227-03 on
Ebay right now for $8 + shipping.  I will try the 02 first, and see how it
goes.

Ruud,
I only have one spare ( I assume working) NTSC 6560, but it's part of a
clock I made out of a VIC-20 and all of the rest of my VIC-20's work.
vintagecomputer.net/pictures/vic20_clock.JPG.

Bill

At 09:12 AM 1/9/2007 +0100, you wrote:

>Hallo Bill,
>
>
> > Does anyone have a spare 251104-01 or the equivalent for
> > trade/sale?
>
>As the SX itself is rare IMHO, a spare ROM certainly will be. As Rolf
>already mentioned, a normal C64 ROM should work as well. A third solution
>is a 28-pins EPROM like the 2764 (or higher) plus a convertor socket. Last
>solution: I can burn you a Motorola 68674 (???), the EPROM version of the
>2364. In that case you can plug this EPROM directly in the original socket.
>As a trade I'm looking for the 6560, the NTSC-version of VIC-20 video
>chip. I have no idea if this chip is hard to find. If you cannot find it,
>a 6567 will do as well as I can use a spare for my US equipment.
>


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Re: 251101-01 Kernal ROM chip for SX-64 (UD3)

Marko Mäkelä-3
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 10:27:05PM -0500, B. Degnan wrote:
> ...Thanks to everyone who replied.  I am happy to use a regular C64 ROM.  I
> have a 901227-02 / 1383 that should do the trick.  There is a 901227-03 on
> Ebay right now for $8 + shipping.  I will try the 02 first, and see how it
> goes.

The 901227-03 is probably the most common version.  $8 seems way too
expensive for it.  There is no big difference between ROM versions.
Probably the most visible differences are the screen colours and the
output of the SHIFT+STOP key combination.

> I only have one spare ( I assume working) NTSC 6560, but it's part of a
> clock I made out of a VIC-20 and all of the rest of my VIC-20's work.
> vintagecomputer.net/pictures/vic20_clock.JPG.

Argh, why isn't the clock powered by the Vic-20?  Hmm, or maybe it
wouldn't be a good idea to risk speeding up the aging of the hardware
by having it constantly powered on.

        Marko

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