Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

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Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

Hallo allemaal,

 

 

Among (too) many other hobby things I'm busy drawing the schematics and board layout of the 610 and 720 in Eagle. Looking at the 610 board I noticed that, beside the holes needed for the 8088 card, there are several other holes in that area. I have no idea what they are for and the save thing to do is to include them in the package of the board. But still: can anybody tell for what are these holes needed for?

(I haven't opened my 720 yet so I don't know if it has extra holes as well)

 

Comparing to previous projects I did, this a really big board. So I could use some advice. I reasoned that some connectors, like the cassette port, RS232 and 720-keyboard connector, have to be included in the package for the board because they need to be at a fixed position. The 610-keyboard and userport connector don't have to be placed at exactly the same spot as on the real board IMHO so I offer them as separate packages. But what about the big and small expansion connectors left and right of the DRAM? I don't know any other card then the 8088 card that uses these connectors and it uses flatcables to connect itself to the motherboard and therefore it doesn't need these connectors at a fixed place. (hmmm, just popped up: for the same reason it doesn't matter if the holes are moved a bit) So what to do with these connectors?

 

FYI: although the package of the board includes several connectors, the board and the connectors have their own symbol.

 

 

Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

 

www.Baltissen.org

 

 

 



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RE: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

Hallo allemaal,

 

Update:

By accident I ran into the Proxa board at Steve Gray's site, http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/proxa/index.html , which uses at least a part the first big expansion connector. I see soldering holes for another header at the other side of the card which could be for the small expansion connector, but it is not populated. And I don't see any holes meant for fixing it to the motherboard.

 

 

Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

 

www.Baltissen.org

 

 

 



De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Steve Gray
There is also a 1024K memory board by Anderson Communications Engineering:

Steve



From: "Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)" <[hidden email]>
To: "'[hidden email]'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Hallo allemaal,
 
Update:
By accident I ran into the Proxa board at Steve Gray's site, http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/proxa/index.html , which uses at least a part the first big expansion connector. I see soldering holes for another header at the other side of the card which could be for the small expansion connector, but it is not populated. And I don't see any holes meant for fixing it to the motherboard.
 
 
Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen
 
 
 
 


De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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RE: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

Hallo Steve,

 

 

> There is also a 1024K memory board by Anderson Communications Engineering:

 

Thank you for this info!

 

The JPG looks as if the board uses female headers at the under site of the board for both big expansion connectors (*) and the small one at the other side. IIRC the position of the smaller connector in the 610 is different from the one in the 720 and that would explain the connector in the left of the JPG. You can see clearly the lines that connect it with its female counterpart. So for one of the computers you'll need a flatcable. Could you tell me in which system the board would fit w/o using the flatcable, please?

 

Anyway, both your cards are enough reasons for me to keep the connectors and holes fixed to each other. But I will design them as a separate package so I still have some flexibility in placing the whole on the motherboard. Another idea: why using two different layouts, why not using the one for the 720 for both the 720 and 610 (or the other way around)? Comment is welcome!

 

(*): why two? Why isn't one enough? Both connectors are the same AFAIK. Or is here another difference in layout between the 610 and 720? I'll definitely have to check this this evening.

 

 

Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

 

www.Baltissen.org

 

 

 

 



De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Steve Gray
Ruud,

I have another for you, which is related. The "Alternate OS" board:

This is an advertisement for it and other products including the 1024K board. The 1024K board mounts on the Low Profile machines (610, B128 etc) only. It plugs directly into the expansion sockets and it provides two pass-thru header connections for the Alternate OS board. The pass-thru connectors are spaced exactly like the LP motherboard connectors but are offset towards the back of the machine so that the Alternate OS board mounts on top in such a way that it does not interfere with the internal LP keyboard.

I have not seen a picture of the Alternate OS board, so I don't know if there are any remaining specimens out there. I don't know if Gary Anderson is still around to provide more info. I only know of 2 owners of 1024K boards and I assume that not many of them were made, so I'm not sure you really need to worry about being compatible with them.

My personal feeling is if you're re-making the CBM-II motherboard then you should be able to do 1024K directly on the new motherboard, and maybe even duplicate the Alternate OS board simply by making the ROM sizes bigger and adding a switch (or circuit) to control the upper address line(s).

Steve




From: "Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)" <[hidden email]>
To: "'[hidden email]'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 8:21 AM
Subject: RE: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Hallo Steve,
 
 
> There is also a 1024K memory board by Anderson Communications Engineering:
 
Thank you for this info!
 
The JPG looks as if the board uses female headers at the under site of the board for both big expansion connectors (*) and the small one at the other side. IIRC the position of the smaller connector in the 610 is different from the one in the 720 and that would explain the connector in the left of the JPG. You can see clearly the lines that connect it with its female counterpart. So for one of the computers you'll need a flatcable. Could you tell me in which system the board would fit w/o using the flatcable, please?
 
Anyway, both your cards are enough reasons for me to keep the connectors and holes fixed to each other. But I will design them as a separate package so I still have some flexibility in placing the whole on the motherboard. Another idea: why using two different layouts, why not using the one for the 720 for both the 720 and 610 (or the other way around)? Comment is welcome!
 
(*): why two? Why isn't one enough? Both connectors are the same AFAIK. Or is here another difference in layout between the 610 and 720? I'll definitely have to check this this evening.
 
 
Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen
 
 
 
 
 


De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij
overgebrachte virussen.

APG Groep N.V. is gevestigd te Heerlen en is ingeschreven in het
handelsregister van de Kamer van Koophandel Limburg onder nummer 14099617


The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged.
It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient.
If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by
return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its
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delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Mike Naberezny
On 4/26/18 7:50 AM, Steve Gray wrote:
> I have not seen a picture of the Alternate OS board, so I don't know if there
> are any remaining specimens out there.

Bill Degnan has one (he's on this list):
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=514

> I don't know if Gary Anderson is still around to provide more info.

I tracked down Gary Anderson and talked with him in 2013.  He said he didn't
have any of his CBM-II items anymore.

Regards,
Mike

--
Mike Naberezny ([hidden email]) http://6502.org


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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Bill Degnan
I never did anything with it unfortunately...

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 4/26/18 7:50 AM, Steve Gray wrote:
I have not seen a picture of the Alternate OS board, so I don't know if there are any remaining specimens out there.

Bill Degnan has one (he's on this list):
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=514

I don't know if Gary Anderson is still around to provide more info.

I tracked down Gary Anderson and talked with him in 2013.  He said he didn't have any of his CBM-II items anymore.

Regards,
Mike

--
Mike Naberezny ([hidden email]) http://6502.org



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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Bill Degnan
In reply to this post by Mike Naberezny


On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 4/26/18 7:50 AM, Steve Gray wrote:
I have not seen a picture of the Alternate OS board, so I don't know if there are any remaining specimens out there.

Bill Degnan has one (he's on this list):
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=514

I don't know if Gary Anderson is still around to provide more info.

I tracked down Gary Anderson and talked with him in 2013.  He said he didn't have any of his CBM-II items anymore.

Regards,
Mike


 
I never did anything with it unfortunately.
b
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

MiaM
In reply to this post by Steve Gray
Den Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:57:12 +0000 (UTC) skrev Steve Gray
<[hidden email]>:
> There is also a 1024K memory board by Anderson Communications
> Engineering:http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/pic-ace-b1024.jpg

If Ruud is doing a replica, it might be a good idea to include 1MB
directly on the motherboard.

Btw I've already started drawing the schematics but in KiCad. I've done
most of the first two pages (CPU, the complicated timing
generation e.t.c.). I could send you the files if you are interested.

--
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(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Steve Gray
Yes, 1MB onboard would be nice, and maybe switch selection of BASIC128 / BASIC 256.

Yes, I'd be interested in the Kicad schematic, thanks! I may be able to help as well.

Steve



From: Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Den Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:57:12 +0000 (UTC) skrev Steve Gray

<[hidden email]>:
> There is also a 1024K memory board by Anderson Communications
> Engineering:http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/pic-ace-b1024.jpg


If Ruud is doing a replica, it might be a good idea to include 1MB
directly on the motherboard.

Btw I've already started drawing the schematics but in KiCad. I've done
most of the first two pages (CPU, the complicated timing
generation e.t.c.). I could send you the files if you are interested.

--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.




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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Ruud
In reply to this post by MiaM
Hallo Mia,


> I could send you the files if you are interested.

Thank you for the offer but I did about 50% already.


> ... be a good idea to include 1MB directly on the motherboard.

That is my intention anyway. But first things first like:
- the schematics of both the 610 and 720, busy with that.
- the devices/symbols/packages of the boards, busy with that
And I think this is a one man's job because I have no idea how split
up this job and to combine the results. Note: I use Eagle 7.7 so if
you want to do it in Kicad, please do.

- to find out what the various ICs do
I have no intention to recreate the original board because I don't
see any gain in doing that. As said before, I want a new version
with 1 MB of RAM and, preferably, the 8088/8087 on the same board.
To make things simpler I would prefer to use SRAM; no CAS/RAS issues
which simplifies the timing i.e. less hardware IMHO. BUT IF WE HAVE
NO IDEA WHAT THE ORIGINAL LOGIC DOES..... So if you, Steve or
anybody wants to help, please find out what all the logic does.
READ: mainly all those bloody 74ls74 latches :)
Just popped up when writing the above: when using a 1 MB DRAM SIM we
could save a lot of space. The extra refresh bits are no problem
IMHO. Just in case the SRAM idea doesn't work out well.

- what ICs are we going to use?
The one trouble shooter that comes into my mind is the 6525.
Replacing the glue logic with a CPLD does save space but can it be
used to replace the 6525s as well? Very very wild shot: replacing
them with better available ICs like the 6522, 6526 or maybe even the
8255?

Enfin, enough things to do and to wonder about. But what else should
we being the marvelous CBM-Hackers? :)


FYI: I think I just finished the minimum 720 board. It contains:
- 6 holes to fix it to the frame. The holes are surrounded by
circles of top and bottom layer. The original inners are metalized
but I have no idea how to do that: the available VIAs are too small.
- keyboard connector
- RS232 connector
- IEEE edge connector
- cassette port edge connector
- external sound connector
- cartridge connector
- 4 holes for the metal cover. I could have used VIAs (I think) but
they coverd the drilling holes and the rim had the wrong size. Any
ideas are welcome!

The rest, like the power connector and the expansion connectors,
don't have to be fixed at exactly the same place so I left them out.
There will come sparate devices for them.


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

MiaM
Den Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:08:08 +0200 skrev [hidden email]:

> Hallo Mia,
>
>
> > I could send you the files if you are interested.
>
> Thank you for the offer but I did about 50% already.
>
>
> > ... be a good idea to include 1MB directly on the motherboard.
>
> That is my intention anyway. But first things first like:
> - the schematics of both the 610 and 720, busy with that.
> - the devices/symbols/packages of the boards, busy with that
> And I think this is a one man's job because I have no idea how split
> up this job and to combine the results. Note: I use Eagle 7.7 so if
> you want to do it in Kicad, please do.
>
> - to find out what the various ICs do
> I have no intention to recreate the original board because I don't
> see any gain in doing that. As said before, I want a new version
> with 1 MB of RAM and, preferably, the 8088/8087 on the same board.
> To make things simpler I would prefer to use SRAM; no CAS/RAS issues
> which simplifies the timing i.e. less hardware IMHO. BUT IF WE HAVE
> NO IDEA WHAT THE ORIGINAL LOGIC DOES..... So if you, Steve or
> anybody wants to help, please find out what all the logic does.
> READ: mainly all those bloody 74ls74 latches :)
> Just popped up when writing the above: when using a 1 MB DRAM SIM we
> could save a lot of space. The extra refresh bits are no problem
> IMHO. Just in case the SRAM idea doesn't work out well.

My intention is to find some kind of suitable software for timing
diagrams (I was first thinking about project management software, but
there seems to be software especially made for thins purpose).

The magic that's mostly on page 2 is a shift register which acts as a 9
stage sequencer clocked by the 18MHz dot clock. The outputs are
either used as they are or combined with either the dot clock or
inverted dot clock, to i practice create a sequencer with a total of 18
steps for each full 2MHz CPU clock cycle.

Then each 74xx gate is just fed with a set and a reset signal that goes
active in different parts of the 18-step cycle.

The thing that needs to be put into a timing diagram is all the
min/max (and perhaps typical?) delay times for each involved IC. It's
all standard 74xx logic and all that stuff are in the data sheets so
as soon as the first threshold to actually get something done at all is
overcome, it should be a piece of cake to get everything done.

One strange thing though happens on page 1. There are two flip-flops
made of simple gates, and they are both fed by the same input signals!
I guess that it's done this way to get clean signals to the phi 1/2
inputs on the 6509 and let the other flip flop feed everything else
that needs the same signals.

This is btw something that might actually need some measuring. As an
error in the pinout of the 6509 data sheet weren't publicly known
until early this year, there might be more errors lingering that we
don't know about.

My idea is to replace most of page 2 and parts of other pages
(especially the flip flops on page 1) with programmable logic, assuming
it would be worth getting rid of all those 74xx flipflops.

> - what ICs are we going to use?

Prio 1: Get rid of the 6509 and 6525's.

In the 6509 replacement thread I think Jim got stuck at a point where
a nmos 6502 works but a cmos 65C02 doesen't work. That needs to be
investigated. If a 65C02 could be made to work, it would be good to
check if any existing software uses illegal op codes or similar. If
not, a 65816 might be a good idea. In it's 6502 emulation mode it could
use the same kind of registers as the 6509 to access all 1MB ram, but
in the full 65816 mode it could access all ram in it's native way.

I know this is feature creep but in theory the board could hold both a
nmos 6502 and a 65816, to make it compatible with all existing software.

> The one trouble shooter that comes into my mind is the 6525.
> Replacing the glue logic with a CPLD does save space but can it be
> used to replace the 6525s as well? Very very wild shot: replacing
> them with better available ICs like the 6522, 6526 or maybe even the
> 8255?

6522 should work to emulate two of the three ports of a 6525 triport.
But to emulate the interrupt controller that's used in one of the two
6525's we would need some kind of programmable logic.

A big question is: Do we want 100% comaptibility even for
super-ill-behaved software, or would it be ok to make some
simplifications? For example the keyboard matrix is just an X/Y matrix
but the 6525's allow flipping which of the X and Y are inputs and which
are outputs. If the hardware enforce using the keyboard the way kernal
already does, we could use some simple 74xx logic to make 8-bit in
ports and 8-bit out ports

I were thinking about the 6821's but they adress port and DDR
differently from how the 6522/6525/6526's do. This is also true for
8255 which anyway won't led you control DDR for each pin individually
like the 6821/6522/6525/6526 do.

Although if we would accept changing kernal we could use 6821 or maybe
even 8255 but then it seems better to roll the I/O by hand using 74xx
that are compatible with the existing kernal.

The only thing that really needs some investigation is the interrupt
controller. It seems fairly simple but as always it would be a good
idea to actually do some testing with an existing machine to make sure
everything is understood correctly.

Maybe it would be a good idea to split the project into several
steps/parts?

I know that it would be a good idea to make a complete replacement
board - but large boards drive cost and it could easilly get a bit too
expensive if a few revisions would be needed until it works good
enough. Also it would be expensive to experiment with for example
larger ram and other modification.

Therefore I kind of suggest that in some early stage it could probably
be a good idea to split everything onto several smaller boards. Afaik
10x10cm is some kind of limit where boards are really cheap to have
manufactured. I haven't really investigated what's possible to put onto
a board of that small size though.

The stuff that needs to work from the beginning is some 6509
replacement, rom and the video circuit. It would be preferable to have
ram working as well though. Then emulation of the 6525's and all
kinds of drivers for various ports could be added on separate cards
later.

Also I'm not sure that everyone interested in a replacement board
actually wants one that fits an existing B series case. I certainly
don't want that as I haven't got any B series machine. But as long as
we don't almost run out of space on the board, it could probably be
edited to fit various physical form factors if that would be wanted.

Btw, are the 6551 compatible enough with a 6850? If not, what differs?

Which software uses the 6551?

One thing I would really like to have is hardware that can remap
various stuff so it could emulate a PET too.

Sorry for feature creeping ;)



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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Jim Brain
On 4/27/2018 4:10 PM, Mia Magnusson wrote:
>
> In the 6509 replacement thread I think Jim got stuck at a point where
> a nmos 6502 works but a cmos 65C02 doesen't work.
"stuck" might be too strong a word.  I noticed it did not, and I needed
to do the board rev, so I quit debugging until the new baords came.

They have arrived, and I can drag it out and test.
> That needs to be
> investigated. If a 65C02 could be made to work, it would be good to
> check if any existing software uses illegal op codes or similar. If
> not, a 65816 might be a good idea. In it's 6502 emulation mode it could
> use the same kind of registers as the 6509 to access all 1MB ram, but
> in the full 65816 mode it could access all ram in it's native way.
I am sure it will work, and an '816 as well.

Happy to help with CPLD work.

> Also I'm not sure that everyone interested in a replacement board
> actually wants one that fits an existing B series case. I certainly
> don't want that as I haven't got any B series machine. But as long as
> we don't almost run out of space on the board, it could probably be
> edited to fit various physical form factors if that would be wanted.
>
> Btw, are the 6551 compatible enough with a 6850? If not, what differs?
A lot
>
> Which software uses the 6551?
>
> One thing I would really like to have is hardware that can remap
> various stuff so it could emulate a PET too.
I am confident that the board can be as small as the DIP ICs (6509/6502,
6551, 6525, 6525, 6526, 6581, 6845) + a tqfp144, a TSOP44 FLASH and a
TSOP48 2MB SRAM + connectors.

But, at that size, the DIP ICs then dominate the board.  The obvious
next step is to move the '25,'25,'26,and '02/816 into progrmamable
logic, but you're into FPGA land then.  Then, the 6845 and the 6551 are
moving, and the resulting board would be a CPLD (buffers for the FPGA),
FPGA, FPGA ROM, ROM, RAM, SID, connectors.

I think that leaves 2 options:  DIP parts/CPLD/RAM/FLASH, or Full
FPGA/RAM/FLASH/SID...

Jim

smf
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

smf
On 28/04/2018 04:54, Jim Brain wrote:

>
> I think that leaves 2 options:  DIP parts/CPLD/RAM/FLASH, or Full
> FPGA/RAM/FLASH/SID...
>
If someone takes up option 2 then It would be nice if it was compatible
with https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64



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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Ruud
In reply to this post by MiaM
Hallo Mia


> The magic that's mostly on page 2 is a shift register...

Nice to know that there is somebody around who was able to make some sense of it :)
Just one thing comes to my mind: I'm quite sure that part of it is used to generate CAS and RAS. If we switch to SRAM, is it possible to simplify things and to switch to a 8 or 4 MHz main clock?


> As an error in the pinout of the 6509 data sheet weren't publicly known
> until early this year, there might be more errors lingering that we
> don't know about.

Big OOPS, I completely forgot about that! Could you do me a favour and write what the error exactly was? At this moment I haven't even an idea in what thread to look for in the archive. TIA!


> Prio 1: Get rid of the 6509 and 6525's.

I don't mind about getting rid of the 6509 as well because it is rare as well. But a condition is that the replacement is 100% compatible.


> Btw, are the 6551 compatible enough with a 6850?

Eh, why mentioning the 6850, because you like it more than the 6551 or did I miss something?


> One thing I would really like to have is hardware that can remap
> various stuff so it could emulate a PET too.
 
See later.


> Sorry for feature creeping ;)

NP, I do the same all the time as well.



Hallo Jim,


> I think that leaves 2 options:  DIP parts/CPLD/RAM/FLASH, or
> Full FPGA/RAM/FLASH/SID...

I think you hit the nail right on it head. The last option makes it possible to do everything like including the 8088 board and the remapping for the PET. But being a guy that loves to play with ICs.... Very difficult indeed.
But first things first: the schematics.



Regarding developing just one board: what about a main board plus a small one for the 6x0 and 7x0 that only contains the various connectors? A 96-pins DIN connector could connect the two boards.
And I'm sure we can work out something similar for the keyboard connector of the 7x0 as well.
OTOH, what would it cost to produce to separate boards?

Just my two cents.


--
  
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org





  
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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

MiaM
Den Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:41 +0200 skrev [hidden email]:

> Hallo Mia
>
>
> > The magic that's mostly on page 2 is a shift register...
>
> Nice to know that there is somebody around who was able to make some
> sense of it :) Just one thing comes to my mind: I'm quite sure that
> part of it is used to generate CAS and RAS. If we switch to SRAM, is
> it possible to simplify things and to switch to a 8 or 4 MHz main
> clock?

Maybe it could be a bit simpler, but I see no reason for throwing away
that possibility to control timing exactly. The 18MHz clock is needed
for the pixel clock anyways (unless the CRTC and it's surrounding
hardware is replaced with something else. I can't remember who but
someone on this list made some hardware that produces a VGA compatible
output signal).

> > As an error in the pinout of the 6509 data sheet weren't publicly
> > known until early this year, there might be more errors lingering
> > that we don't know about.
>
> Big OOPS, I completely forgot about that! Could you do me a favour
> and write what the error exactly was? At this moment I haven't even
> an idea in what thread to look for in the archive. TIA!

The clock signals are mixed up. See this:
http://archive.6502.org/datasheets/mos_6509_mpu.pdf

> > Prio 1: Get rid of the 6509 and 6525's.
>
> I don't mind about getting rid of the 6509 as well because it is rare
> as well. But a condition is that the replacement is 100% compatible.

A NMOS 6502 with Jims circuit should be 100% compatible.

> > Btw, are the 6551 compatible enough with a 6850?
>
> Eh, why mentioning the 6850, because you like it more than the 6551
> or did I miss something?

Sorry, I don't know why I thought they were somewhat compatible...

> > One thing I would really like to have is hardware that can remap
> > various stuff so it could emulate a PET too.
>  
> See later.
>
>
> > Sorry for feature creeping ;)
>
> NP, I do the same all the time as well.

:)

> Hallo Jim,
>
>
> > I think that leaves 2 options:  DIP parts/CPLD/RAM/FLASH, or
> > Full FPGA/RAM/FLASH/SID...
>
> I think you hit the nail right on it head. The last option makes it
> possible to do everything like including the 8088 board and the
> remapping for the PET. But being a guy that loves to play with
> ICs.... Very difficult indeed. But first things first: the schematics.

... and with a FPGA replacing most stuff, we might aswell run VICE or
similar...

> Regarding developing just one board: what about a main board plus a
> small one for the 6x0 and 7x0 that only contains the various
> connectors? A 96-pins DIN connector could connect the two boards. And
> I'm sure we can work out something similar for the keyboard connector
> of the 7x0 as well. OTOH, what would it cost to produce to separate
> boards?
>
> Just my two cents.

Well, unless everything goes well in the first try, it would certainly
be cheaper to just replace one smaller faulty board instead of a larger
board. So assuming there would be atleast one "bad" prototype it seems
like a two board solution would save money in the long run. When it
actually works everything could be integrated on a single board.


--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Michał Pleban
In reply to this post by MiaM
Hello!

Mia Magnusson wrote:

> My intention is to find some kind of suitable software for timing
> diagrams (I was first thinking about project management software, but
> there seems to be software especially made for thins purpose).

Why not simply attaching a logic analyzer to various signals and measure
what the real hardware does?

Regards,
Michau.

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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

MiaM
Den Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:00:41 +0200 skrev Michał Pleban
<[hidden email]>:

> Hello!
>
> Mia Magnusson wrote:
>
> > My intention is to find some kind of suitable software for timing
> > diagrams (I was first thinking about project management software,
> > but there seems to be software especially made for thins purpose).
>
> Why not simply attaching a logic analyzer to various signals and
> measure what the real hardware does?

Everything is made of standard 74xx circuits and standard DRAM's
(except the CPU and the CRTC) and it would be really nice to know that
the maximum and minimum delays is for each part of the circuit. (The
6525's doesen't count in this discussion as their timing isn't critical
to understanding how the complicated CPU-RAM-Refresh-Coprocessor stuff
works).

I wounder if anyone who designed or in general worked with the hardware
on theese machines at Commodore are still alive and remembers some
stuff? For example it would be nice to know why some signals are called
PUP1 and PUP2.

--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

Francesco Messineo
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Den Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:00:41 +0200 skrev Michał Pleban
> <[hidden email]>:
>> Hello!
>>
>> Mia Magnusson wrote:
>>
>> > My intention is to find some kind of suitable software for timing
>> > diagrams (I was first thinking about project management software,
>> > but there seems to be software especially made for thins purpose).
>>
>> Why not simply attaching a logic analyzer to various signals and
>> measure what the real hardware does?
>
> Everything is made of standard 74xx circuits and standard DRAM's
> (except the CPU and the CRTC) and it would be really nice to know that
> the maximum and minimum delays is for each part of the circuit. (The
> 6525's doesen't count in this discussion as their timing isn't critical
> to understanding how the complicated CPU-RAM-Refresh-Coprocessor stuff
> works).
>
> I wounder if anyone who designed or in general worked with the hardware
> on theese machines at Commodore are still alive and remembers some
> stuff? For example it would be nice to know why some signals are called
> PUP1 and PUP2.

look if they're static pulled up to some resistor to Vcc... PullUP1, PullUP2...
Just guessing, but I use a similar naming scheme when I design my own boards.

Frank

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Re: Unknown holes in the motherboard of the CBM610

MiaM
Den Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:08:59 +0200 skrev Francesco Messineo
<[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Den Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:00:41 +0200 skrev Michał Pleban
> > <[hidden email]>:
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> Mia Magnusson wrote:
> >>
> >> > My intention is to find some kind of suitable software for timing
> >> > diagrams (I was first thinking about project management software,
> >> > but there seems to be software especially made for thins
> >> > purpose).
> >>
> >> Why not simply attaching a logic analyzer to various signals and
> >> measure what the real hardware does?
> >
> > Everything is made of standard 74xx circuits and standard DRAM's
> > (except the CPU and the CRTC) and it would be really nice to know
> > that the maximum and minimum delays is for each part of the
> > circuit. (The 6525's doesen't count in this discussion as their
> > timing isn't critical to understanding how the complicated
> > CPU-RAM-Refresh-Coprocessor stuff works).
> >
> > I wounder if anyone who designed or in general worked with the
> > hardware on theese machines at Commodore are still alive and
> > remembers some stuff? For example it would be nice to know why some
> > signals are called PUP1 and PUP2.
>
> look if they're static pulled up to some resistor to Vcc... PullUP1,
> PullUP2... Just guessing, but I use a similar naming scheme when I
> design my own boards.

Thanks! Yes, they seem to go to pull-up resistors.

But why not just join each of those TTL inputs with +5V directly on the
nearby chip?

Does some 74xx IC's work better with slightly less drive to +5V on the
signal that feeds the inputs?

--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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