UD3 ROM on a 3032

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UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
Hi all,
I started working on my 3032 (2001-32), it will be a long project,
since it's mostly a pile of dirt and rust (I've found it in this state
15 years ago, in a side of the street).
I've seen the UD3 ROM socket populated, here's a picture:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx5o8rd6ng75ac8/UD3-orig.jpg?dl=0

I'll be reading the EPROM in the next days, does someone have an idea
about what might that be anyway?

Thanks
Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Gerrit Heitsch
On 10/30/2016 06:20 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

> Hi all,
> I started working on my 3032 (2001-32), it will be a long project,
> since it's mostly a pile of dirt and rust (I've found it in this state
> 15 years ago, in a side of the street).
> I've seen the UD3 ROM socket populated, here's a picture:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx5o8rd6ng75ac8/UD3-orig.jpg?dl=0
>
> I'll be reading the EPROM in the next days, does someone have an idea
> about what might that be anyway?

When dumping the EPROM, please dump it twice, once normal and once with
a 1N4148 between Vcc of the EPROM and Vcc. Then compare the 2 dumps. If
they are the same, you can consider it a successful dump. If not, the
dump taken with the 1N4148 might be correct.

  Gerrit



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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/30/2016 06:20 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I started working on my 3032 (2001-32), it will be a long project,
>> since it's mostly a pile of dirt and rust (I've found it in this state
>> 15 years ago, in a side of the street).
>> I've seen the UD3 ROM socket populated, here's a picture:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx5o8rd6ng75ac8/UD3-orig.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> I'll be reading the EPROM in the next days, does someone have an idea
>> about what might that be anyway?
>
>
> When dumping the EPROM, please dump it twice, once normal and once with a
> 1N4148 between Vcc of the EPROM and Vcc. Then compare the 2 dumps. If they
> are the same, you can consider it a successful dump. If not, the dump taken
> with the 1N4148 might be correct.

I can tell my programmer to use a specific Vcc, I have to see what are
the limits since I've never played too much with it in the past.
Are you suggesting to use 5V and 4.3V or 6V and 5.3V?
I'm sure the programmer goes to 6V or 6.5V when programming on many
EPROM brands/models, but I didn't pay attention to the Vcc value when
reading it.
I'll try the series diode too anyway.

Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Gerrit Heitsch
On 10/30/2016 06:59 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 10/30/2016 06:20 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I started working on my 3032 (2001-32), it will be a long project,
>>> since it's mostly a pile of dirt and rust (I've found it in this state
>>> 15 years ago, in a side of the street).
>>> I've seen the UD3 ROM socket populated, here's a picture:
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx5o8rd6ng75ac8/UD3-orig.jpg?dl=0
>>>
>>> I'll be reading the EPROM in the next days, does someone have an idea
>>> about what might that be anyway?
>>
>>
>> When dumping the EPROM, please dump it twice, once normal and once with a
>> 1N4148 between Vcc of the EPROM and Vcc. Then compare the 2 dumps. If they
>> are the same, you can consider it a successful dump. If not, the dump taken
>> with the 1N4148 might be correct.
>
> I can tell my programmer to use a specific Vcc, I have to see what are
> the limits since I've never played too much with it in the past.
> Are you suggesting to use 5V and 4.3V or 6V and 5.3V?

5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc. Why
becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.

  Gerrit




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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:


>
> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc. Why
> becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.


ok, I'll do that. If it's marginal, then it helps to read at Vcc of 5.5V or 6V.

Thanks for the hint.
Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Gerrit Heitsch
On 10/30/2016 07:28 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc. Why
>> becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.
>
>
> ok, I'll do that. If it's marginal, then it helps to read at Vcc of 5.5V or 6V.

No, if it's marginal, you need to read it at LOWER Vcc.

  Gerrit



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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/30/2016 07:28 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc. Why
>>> becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.
>>
>>
>>
>> ok, I'll do that. If it's marginal, then it helps to read at Vcc of 5.5V
>> or 6V.
>
>
> No, if it's marginal, you need to read it at LOWER Vcc.

ok I understand, low gate charge makes a better "0" at lower Vcc, isn't it?
Ok, I just need some time, I'll make a socket with the embedded diode,
unless my programmer can use, say, 4.5V Vcc when reading. I'll post
the hopefully correct dump here one of the next days (or weeks).

Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Clockmeister
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch


On 31/10/2016 2:23 AM, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

> On 10/30/2016 06:59 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 10/30/2016 06:20 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> I started working on my 3032 (2001-32), it will be a long project,
>>>> since it's mostly a pile of dirt and rust (I've found it in this state
>>>> 15 years ago, in a side of the street).
>>>> I've seen the UD3 ROM socket populated, here's a picture:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx5o8rd6ng75ac8/UD3-orig.jpg?dl=0
>>>>
>>>> I'll be reading the EPROM in the next days, does someone have an idea
>>>> about what might that be anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>> When dumping the EPROM, please dump it twice, once normal and once
>>> with a
>>> 1N4148 between Vcc of the EPROM and Vcc. Then compare the 2 dumps.
>>> If they
>>> are the same, you can consider it a successful dump. If not, the
>>> dump taken
>>> with the 1N4148 might be correct.
>>
>> I can tell my programmer to use a specific Vcc, I have to see what are
>> the limits since I've never played too much with it in the past.
>> Are you suggesting to use 5V and 4.3V or 6V and 5.3V?
>
> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc.
> Why becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.
>


Makes sense if you think about it but it hadn't occurred to me either to
lower Vcc to read a flakey EPROM.
  Thanks for the hint.



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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Francesco Messineo
On 10/30/2016 10:45 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 10/30/2016 07:28 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc. Why
>>>> becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ok, I'll do that. If it's marginal, then it helps to read at Vcc of 5.5V
>>> or 6V.
>>
>>
>> No, if it's marginal, you need to read it at LOWER Vcc.
>
> ok I understand, low gate charge makes a better "0" at lower Vcc, isn't it?

Yes... The same reason why you verify the EPROM after programming with a
higher Vcc (6V or so), to make sure the cells have a large margin when
used at +5V. Most programmers do that automatically.

Of course, there is a lower limit to how far you can reduce Vcc, but so
far any EPROM I tried had no problem with a 1N4148 used to steal in the
range of 0,7V and there were EPROMs where that made the difference.

  Gerrit



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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
Here's the dump of my unknown UD3 (reading with a diode on Vcc gives
the same image).
The label says S.TOOL (the L in the picture was missing), here're some
interesting strings from the dump that I'm sure you would found too:

(C) 1981 PDATA
 OK
SUPER*TOOL
(049) 613333

The last one is an old italian telephone number from the city of
Padova, so it seems that this ROM image was made there by a company
called PDATA. I don't remember such a name, but also it passed quite
some time. I'll dig out some italian computer magazines of that era,
maybe there's a reference on them or some advertisement.
Google search didn't give any useful result (maybe I'm not asking the
correct question).

Someone with a 2001-32 can probably burn a 2532 and try it, my own one
needs some months of work to be ready more likely.
Frank

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/30/2016 10:45 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/30/2016 07:28 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5V and 4.3V. If an EPROM starts to lose data, it helps to lower Vcc.
>>>>> Why
>>>>> becomes obvious once you understand how and EPROM cell works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ok, I'll do that. If it's marginal, then it helps to read at Vcc of 5.5V
>>>> or 6V.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, if it's marginal, you need to read it at LOWER Vcc.
>>
>>
>> ok I understand, low gate charge makes a better "0" at lower Vcc, isn't
>> it?
>
>
> Yes... The same reason why you verify the EPROM after programming with a
> higher Vcc (6V or so), to make sure the cells have a large margin when used
> at +5V. Most programmers do that automatically.
>
> Of course, there is a lower limit to how far you can reduce Vcc, but so far
> any EPROM I tried had no problem with a 1N4148 used to steal in the range of
> 0,7V and there were EPROMs where that made the difference.
>
>
>  Gerrit
>
>
>
>       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list

S.TOOL-UD3.bin (5K) Download Attachment
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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Mike Naberezny
On 10/31/16 2:25 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
> (C) 1981 PDATA
>  OK
> SUPER*TOOL
> (049) 613333

I disassembled SUPER*TOOL just enough to get it to run.  It starts with "SYS
37000" but requires BASIC 2 (won't work on BASIC 4).  It provides a DOS wedge
using the "@" character.  I only looked at it briefly so it's likely there are
other features.

Regards,
Mike

--
Mike Naberezny ([hidden email]) http://6502.org


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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Ethan Dicks
On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/31/16 2:25 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> (C) 1981 PDATA
>>  OK
>> SUPER*TOOL
>> (049) 613333
>
> I disassembled SUPER*TOOL just enough to get it to run.  It starts with "SYS
> 37000" but requires BASIC 2 (won't work on BASIC 4).  It provides a DOS
> wedge using the "@" character.  I only looked at it briefly so it's likely
> there are other features.

I happen to have a couple 2001-N machines (U.S. version of the 3032),
so I was curious.  I had no problems firing up VICE with this ROM at
$9000 and doing a SYS 37000 and confirming it acts like the DOS Wedge.
I didn't dig too deeply either to see what the entire command set was,
but status ("@") and directory ("@$") were easy enough to verify.

-ethan

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Ethan Dicks <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 10/31/16 2:25 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>
>>> (C) 1981 PDATA
>>>  OK
>>> SUPER*TOOL
>>> (049) 613333
>>
>> I disassembled SUPER*TOOL just enough to get it to run.  It starts with "SYS
>> 37000" but requires BASIC 2 (won't work on BASIC 4).  It provides a DOS
>> wedge using the "@" character.  I only looked at it briefly so it's likely
>> there are other features.
>
> I happen to have a couple 2001-N machines (U.S. version of the 3032),
> so I was curious.  I had no problems firing up VICE with this ROM at
> $9000 and doing a SYS 37000 and confirming it acts like the DOS Wedge.
> I didn't dig too deeply either to see what the entire command set was,
> but status ("@") and directory ("@$") were easy enough to verify.
>
> -ethan

Thanks for trying, I didn't think about using VICE :)
By the way, this PET has the front label saying
C= commodore   professional computer   3032 series

the real label says
2001-32 N C
MADE IN U.S.A.

So I think it was just imported and re-labeled in the front part?

Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
In reply to this post by Mike Naberezny
Hi

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/31/16 2:25 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> (C) 1981 PDATA
>>  OK
>> SUPER*TOOL
>> (049) 613333
>
>
> I disassembled SUPER*TOOL just enough to get it to run.  It starts with "SYS
> 37000" but requires BASIC 2 (won't work on BASIC 4).  It provides a DOS
> wedge using the "@" character.  I only looked at it briefly so it's likely
> there are other features.
>

are you sure about the start address? All I get on my 3032 is entering
the TIM monitor when I try SYS 37000.
The PET might still have issues as I'm repairing it since a while now,
but I don't see any other bad behaviour, so I'm wondering what's wrong
with this now.

Regards
Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Mike Naberezny
On 2/5/17 9:54 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
> are you sure about the start address? All I get on my 3032 is entering
> the TIM monitor when I try SYS 37000.

SYS 37000 worked for me on both the VICE and MAME emulators.  Ethan Dicks
wrote to this list saying that SYS 37000 worked for him on VICE also.

Regards,
Mike

--
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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2/5/17 9:54 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> are you sure about the start address? All I get on my 3032 is entering
>> the TIM monitor when I try SYS 37000.
>
>
> SYS 37000 worked for me on both the VICE and MAME emulators.  Ethan Dicks
> wrote to this list saying that SYS 37000 worked for him on VICE also.

yes I remember on emulators. I don't have any doubt that the emulation
is reliable. It just happens I can't make it work on the real hardware
and I can't really figure out why.
You said you disassembled it, so maybe if I tell you what's the PC
value after entering the monitor you might give me a clue where it's
stopping?

Thanks
Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Mike Naberezny
On 2/5/17 10:18 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
> You said you disassembled it, so maybe if I tell you what's the PC
> value after entering the monitor you might give me a clue where it's
> stopping?

It depends on the value of the PC.  The PET will often dump into TIM when it
crashes and the PC may not make much sense at that point.  If it's $9xxx then
it's still in the SUPER*TOOL ROM area and a disassembly may be useful.

Regards,
Mike

--
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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/5/17 10:18 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>
>> You said you disassembled it, so maybe if I tell you what's the PC
>> value after entering the monitor you might give me a clue where it's
>> stopping?
>
>
> It depends on the value of the PC.  The PET will often dump into TIM when it
> crashes and the PC may not make much sense at that point.  If it's $9xxx
> then it's still in the SUPER*TOOL ROM area and a disassembly may be useful.

yes, it's still in the $9xxx range, but I didn't notice if it's always
at the same point.
I'm going to try to read the ROM from "inside" the PET and compare the
results with the image obtained reading it in the eprom programmer.

Thanks
Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Francesco Messineo
It was a crappy socket :(
Sorry for that. I had checked continuity on every pin but probably it
was not enough to have a reliable connection. With a real socket, the
option starts fine.
Now the 3032 is stable for a few hours, it just crashed once while
playing with tape load/save, I don't know if a bad tape can solid
crash a PET anyway, it was in the searching phase.
However those original sockets are so scary that I might change them
all (if I ever have the patience to remove all those 40 pins ones).
I need to get a disk drive or a ieee-sd kind of drive, I had forgotten
how slow were tapes :/

Frank

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Francesco Messineo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Mike Naberezny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 2/5/17 10:18 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
>>>
>>> You said you disassembled it, so maybe if I tell you what's the PC
>>> value after entering the monitor you might give me a clue where it's
>>> stopping?
>>
>>
>> It depends on the value of the PC.  The PET will often dump into TIM when it
>> crashes and the PC may not make much sense at that point.  If it's $9xxx
>> then it's still in the SUPER*TOOL ROM area and a disassembly may be useful.
>
> yes, it's still in the $9xxx range, but I didn't notice if it's always
> at the same point.
> I'm going to try to read the ROM from "inside" the PET and compare the
> results with the image obtained reading it in the eprom programmer.
>
> Thanks
> Frank

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Re: UD3 ROM on a 3032

Ethan Dicks
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Francesco Messineo
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> It was a crappy socket :(

Hi, Francesco,

I've had that exact problem on my original 3032 PET (the one I got in
1979).  I ended up replacing all the 40-pin sockets with high-quality
turned-pin sockets.

> Sorry for that. I had checked continuity on every pin but probably it
> was not enough to have a reliable connection. With a real socket, the
> option starts fine.

Excellent.

> I need to get a disk drive or a ieee-sd kind of drive, I had forgotten
> how slow were tapes :/

I used my PET every day for years with tapes.  I used the PET Rabbit
to help speed that up.

I have one of these:

http://www.bitfixer.com/bf/petdisk

So much faster, but I haven't tried using it with other devices on the bus.

-ethan

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