Switching to Linux and C

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Switching to Linux and C

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hallo Ethan,


> Session with my D9090
>
> $ cbmctrl reset
> $ cbmctrl status 12
> ...

So far I haven't been able to use my ZoomFloppy to access any IEEE device under Windows 7 or XP. I acquired two PCs, a P4-3 GHz - 2 GB RAM and a dual-core - 4 GB RAM, that I want to use with Linux. I want to ask you what kind of Linux you use.

Any advice from you other readers is welcome as well. As you see I use W7, the 32 bits version to be precise. The reason for the 32 bits version is that I still can run some 16 bits applications like Turbo Pascal. FYI I use TP to develop the various emulators like CBM-HD. I tried W10 legally but after 2 months I discarded it. But there will come a day that I need a better laptop/PC and I already decided that it will run under Linux. So I better start using it from now on to get experience.
Of course I want to be able to run VICE on it. One thing I want to be able to do is to compile VICE one day. So the question: on what LINUX version does VICE compile and run best?

Another thing: so far I program in Free Pascal for non-DOS applications like my (dis)assemblers. I have tried several times to switch to C. But what put me off so far several times was that if I wrote a program that would compile under compiler A, it wouldn't under compiler B or C. I have seen the huge list of available C compilers for Linux so the first idea is just to stick to the one used for compiling VICE (gcc AFAIK ?). But any good argument is welcome!


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org



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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Per Olofsson-2
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017, at 03:20 AM, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
>
> Another thing: so far I program in Free Pascal for non-DOS applications
> like my (dis)assemblers. I have tried several times to switch to C. But
> what put me off so far several times was that if I wrote a program that
> would compile under compiler A, it wouldn't under compiler B or C. I have
> seen the huge list of available C compilers for Linux so the first idea
> is just to stick to the one used for compiling VICE (gcc AFAIK ?). But
> any good argument is welcome!

I'm guessing that A, B, or C was MSVC++? It's C support is somewhat
lacking, but as of 2015 it at least has C99 support. But the general
rule is stick to POSIX and avoid compiler specific extensions, and the
code should compile on every compliant system. There are three major
revisions of the standard, C89 (aka ANSI C), C99, and C11. gcc would be
my suggestion if you plan on targeting Linux, Windows, and macOS, though
by default it supports the latest standard with some custom extensions.
Use "c99" as the binary instead of "gcc", or pass the "-std=c99" flag to
it.

--
  Per Olofsson
  [hidden email]

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Re: Switching to Linux and C

silverdr-2
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

> On 2017-08-23, at 09:20, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hallo Ethan,
>
>> Session with my D9090
>>
>> $ cbmctrl reset
>> $ cbmctrl status 12
>> ...
>
> So far I haven't been able to use my ZoomFloppy to access any IEEE device under Windows 7 or XP. I acquired two PCs, a P4-3 GHz - 2 GB RAM and a dual-core - 4 GB RAM, that I want to use with Linux. I want to ask you what kind of Linux you use.

You are risking to open a can of worms with such questions :-)

Basically all of the ripe distributions are OK these days. I was a long-term Debian user but switched practically everything to Ubuntu once it got enough momentum. For today I rather recommend Ubuntu for practically all GNU/Linux applications from server to desktop. It's both mature and actively developed at the same time. I also find the TUX[*] among the best for any GNU/Linux distribution. I am close to certain that people using Suse/Redhat/Gentoo/.... will say the same about their distribution of choice so you'll have plenty of responses to choose from :-))

> One thing I want to be able to do is to compile VICE one day. So the question: on what LINUX version does VICE compile and run best?

Any and every mature one. It's not related to Linux. It's mostly GNU tools, which are available for all major distributions. Obviously Ubuntu does that perfectly too.

Another factor is how well your hardware is supported so that you get correct sound / hardware graphics acceleration, etc. Here YMMV but again I had more success with Ubuntu out of the box than I had with some other ones, where I had to do more tweaking at times. Not that I never do any tweaking with Ubuntu, obviously :-)

> Another thing: so far I program in Free Pascal for non-DOS applications like my (dis)assemblers. I have tried several times to switch to C. But what put me off so far several times was that if I wrote a program that would compile under compiler A, it wouldn't under compiler B or C. I have seen the huge list of available C compilers for Linux so the first idea is just to stick to the one used for compiling VICE (gcc AFAIK ?). But any good argument is welcome!

At this stage I'd say simply don't bother about anything else than gcc (which is - BTW - for some time no longer a "Gnu C Compiler" but a "Gnu Compiler Collection"). Just use gcc, write portable code (trying to avoid highly gcc specific extensions if possible) and you'll be all fine even if at some point you'll find a need to compile your code with something else (like clang on LLVM for example).


* - TUX is the mascot of Linux and my self-invented unit of measuring GNU/Linux "Total User Experience" :-)

--
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RE: Switching to Linux and C

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Per Olofsson-2
Hallo Per,


> I'm guessing that A, B, or C was MSVC++?

Nope, Turbo C, gcc, MinGW and Blocks (IIRC the last one, a GUI anyway).



Hallo Patryk,


> For today I rather recommend Ubuntu for practically all GNU/Linux applications from server to desktop. It's both mature and actively developed at the same time.

I had this impression as well. Grzegorz, my oldest son, is using it as well and speaks well of it. But my main reason for choosing a Linux version was how well VICE would do on it and you just confirmed that. You also confirmed that gcc should be my choice as compiler. Thanks!


I just found out on Wikipedia that gcc/djgpp won't run on/compile for 8088 and 8286 so it seems that I still need to stick to Turbo C or Turbo Pascal.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




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smf
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Re: Switching to Linux and C

smf
On 23/08/2017 10:08, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:

> I just found out on Wikipedia that gcc/djgpp won't run on/compile for
> 8088 and 8286 so it seems that I still need to stick to Turbo C or
> Turbo Pascal.

Yeah. I always used Microsoft C 1.52 for 16 bit DOS code.

For 32 & 64 bit I use gcc, clang and Microsoft C v140 (which is
essentially Visual Studio 2015 but it is an optional part of Visual
Studio 2017 in case v141 doesn't work for you, which is lucky because it
doesn't work for me).

If I were picking one, then I'd go for clang. It's the default compiler
on MacOS X & it rejects a lot of bad and unsafe code that GCC happily
compiles.

But I hate Richard Stalman way more than I hate Bill Gates or Steve Jobs
(clang were a heavy user of clang since 2005), so I may be biased.


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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
On 08/23/2017 11:08 AM, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
>
>> For today I rather recommend Ubuntu for practically all GNU/Linux applications from server to desktop. It's both mature and actively developed at the same time.
>
> I had this impression as well. Grzegorz, my oldest son, is using it as well and speaks well of it. But my main reason for choosing a Linux version was how well VICE would do on it and you just confirmed that. You also confirmed that gcc should be my choice as compiler. Thanks!

When using Ubuntu, I suggest the 'Xubuntu' Derivate, it uses XFCE as
window manager. And use 'xterm', not one of them more modern terminal
emulators. Why? It works... with the other emulators I sooner or later
run into a problem and xterm allows lots of configuration options using
the .Xresources or .Xdefaults file.

  Gerrit


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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Ullrich von Bassewitz

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:23:23AM +0200, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> When using Ubuntu, I suggest the 'Xubuntu' Derivate, it uses XFCE as window
> manager.

Good choice. Happy xfce user here, too.

Regards


        Uz


--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Ethan Dicks
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hallo Ethan,

Hello, Ruud,

>> Session with my D9090
>>
>> $ cbmctrl reset
>> $ cbmctrl status 12
>> ...
>
> So far I haven't been able to use my ZoomFloppy to access any IEEE device under Windows 7 or XP. I acquired two PCs, a P4-3 GHz - 2 GB RAM and a dual-core - 4 GB RAM, that I want to use with Linux. I want to ask you what kind of Linux you use.

I happen to be using Linux Mint, which is Ubuntu underneath but
without Unity on top.  As mentioned elsewhere, there are a number of
possible similar flavors, xubuntu is also popular.

> Of course I want to be able to run VICE on it. One thing I want to be able to do is to compile VICE one day. So the question: on what LINUX version does VICE compile and run best?

I don't know if there is a "best".  I think it runs on all of them fine.

-ethan

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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Gerrit Heitsch
On 08/23/2017 06:32 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hallo Ethan,
>
> Hello, Ruud,
>
>>> Session with my D9090
>>>
>>> $ cbmctrl reset
>>> $ cbmctrl status 12
>>> ...
>>
>> So far I haven't been able to use my ZoomFloppy to access any IEEE device under Windows 7 or XP. I acquired two PCs, a P4-3 GHz - 2 GB RAM and a dual-core - 4 GB RAM, that I want to use with Linux. I want to ask you what kind of Linux you use.
>
> I happen to be using Linux Mint, which is Ubuntu underneath but
> without Unity on top.  As mentioned elsewhere, there are a number of
> possible similar flavors, xubuntu is also popular.
>
>> Of course I want to be able to run VICE on it. One thing I want to be able to do is to compile VICE one day. So the question: on what LINUX version does VICE compile and run best?
>
> I don't know if there is a "best".  I think it runs on all of them fine.

And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.

  Gerrit



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Re: Switching to Linux and C

HÁRSFALVI Levente-2
On 2017-08-23 19:44, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> ...
> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
> you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.

You need to tinker with obtaining and populating the ROM files, though.


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RE: Switching to Linux and C

Rainer Buchty
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hi Ruud,

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:

> I just found out on Wikipedia that gcc/djgpp won't run on/compile for
> 8088 and 8286 so it seems that I still need to stick to Turbo C or
> Turbo Pascal.

For pre-386 targets, you might want to check out dev86/bcc:

  https://github.com/lkundrak/dev86

If you also want to go old-school embedded like 8051, have a look at
sdcc ("Small device C Compiler").

  http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/

FWIW, the Free Pascal Compiler (FPC) also supports 8086/16-Bit targets.

  https://www.freepascal.org/

Under Ubuntu (and presumably Debian, too) all are just an "apt-get
install" away.

Rainer


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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Spiro Trikaliotis
In reply to this post by HÁRSFALVI Levente-2
Hello,

* On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 10:09:46PM +0200 HÁRSFALVI Levente wrote:
> On 2017-08-23 19:44, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> > ...
> > And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
> > you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.
>
> You need to tinker with obtaining and populating the ROM files, though.

That's because the VICE in Ubuntu is the VICE from Debian. Like with
many other packages, Ubuntu does not do any own work here, but relies
completely on Laszlo's work on Debian.

When I still was working on it, I just used the original VICE tarball
with the Debian build files. If you started building the packages, you
got complete Debian packages, with the ROMs.

I remember that I had to patch (was it the VICE sources, or was it the
debian/ directory?), because "make install" for the ROMs did not honour
the $prefix. However, IIRC, that patch is already in place, so there is
no need to do anything anymore.

BTW, Ruud, for you as information: Ubuntu also uses Debian (".deb") packages.

Regards,
Spiro.

--
Spiro R. Trikaliotis
http://www.trikaliotis.net/

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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Ethan Dicks
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:20 AM, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Of course I want to be able to run VICE on it. One thing I want to be
>>> able to do is to compile VICE one day. So the question: on what LINUX
>>> version does VICE compile and run best?
>
> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository, you
> only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.

If all you want to do is use VICE, you can install whatever version is
available through the repos, but some of the folks here (including
myself, and most likely Ruud), may want to compile a newer version, or
do some actual feature work on parts of VICE, so how to compile it is
definitely important to some.

-ethan

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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by HÁRSFALVI Levente-2
On 08/23/2017 10:09 PM, HÁRSFALVI Levente wrote:
> On 2017-08-23 19:44, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>> ...
>> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
>> you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.
>
> You need to tinker with obtaining and populating the ROM files, though.

Yes, but I didn't find this complicated since I already had the ROM
dumps on my HD. All I needed was to generate a few symlinks.

  Gerrit



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RE: Switching to Linux and C

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch
Hallo Gerrit,

> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository, you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.

Yesterday evening I installed Xubuntu on both PCs. Having seen it on my son's laptop I knew it could be found somewhere but I forgot the keyword 'repository'. So I'll try again this evening.
Thanks!



Hallo Levente,

> You need to tinker with obtaining and populating the ROM files, though.

I think obtaining them is the least of my problems :)


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org



De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Groepaz
In reply to this post by silverdr-2
Am Mittwoch, 23. August 2017, 10:03:27 CEST schrieben Sie:
> > Another thing: so far I program in Free Pascal for non-DOS applications
> > like my (dis)assemblers. I have tried several times to switch to C. But
> > what put me off so far several times was that if I wrote a program that
> > would compile under compiler A, it wouldn't under compiler B or C. I have
> > seen the huge list of available C compilers for Linux so the first idea
> > is just to stick to the one used for compiling VICE (gcc AFAIK ?). But
> > any good argument is welcome!

i find that an interesting statement from someone who uses pascal compilers :)

if you stick to writing standard C, then really, pretty much any "big"
compiler made in the last decades would do the trick. even cc65 is pretty
standard compliant by now :)


--

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ar.pokefinder.org

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
<Arthur C. Clarke>



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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Groepaz
In reply to this post by HÁRSFALVI Levente-2
Am Mittwoch, 23. August 2017, 22:09:46 CEST schrieben Sie:
> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
> you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.

if only they wouldnt provide broken packages ;_;

--

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ar.pokefinder.org

-If the Bible proves that God exists, then comic books prove the existence of
Superman.



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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Gerrit Heitsch
On 08/24/2017 07:40 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 23. August 2017, 22:09:46 CEST schrieben Sie:
>> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
>> you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.
>
> if only they wouldnt provide broken packages ;_;

It seems to run here as a C64 and a Plus/4 if I start it. Had to provide
the ROM-Files myself, but that's it.

  Gerrit


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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Groepaz
Am Donnerstag, 24. August 2017, 20:08:50 CEST schrieben Sie:
> On 08/24/2017 07:40 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 23. August 2017, 22:09:46 CEST schrieben Sie:
> >> And on Ubuntu you don't need to compile VICE, it's in the repository,
> >> you only need to install it with 'apt-get install vice'.
> >
> > if only they wouldnt provide broken packages ;_;
>
> It seems to run here as a C64 and a Plus/4 if I start it. Had to provide
> the ROM-Files myself, but that's it.

thats the broken part to me. a) there are no rom files b) (much worse) if you
follow the information in the package on how to get the roms, you will end up
with a bunch of files still missing. [1] its no problem for someone who knows
what the symptoms of missing roms are - and that you can always grab them from
the source package or even the windows release. however for users who barely
know what "roms" are this can be a showstopper :)

[1] i have informed the maintainer of the original debian packages a while
ago, so they may or may not fix these problems :)

--

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ar.pokefinder.org

Aechz
<Widdy/G*P>



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Re: Switching to Linux and C

Spiro Trikaliotis
Hello,

* On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 09:01:30PM +0200 [hidden email] wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 24. August 2017, 20:08:50 CEST schrieben Sie:
 
> thats the broken part to me. a) there are no rom files b) (much worse) if you
> follow the information in the package on how to get the roms, you will end up
> with a bunch of files still missing. [1] its no problem for someone who knows
> what the symptoms of missing roms are - and that you can always grab them from
> the source package or even the windows release. however for users who barely
> know what "roms" are this can be a showstopper :)
>
> [1] i have informed the maintainer of the original debian packages a while
> ago, so they may or may not fix these problems :)

What is possible: Create a "vice-rom" debian package. I have done this
myself.

I provided Laszlo a "dummy" vice-rom-dummy package, that would be
installed on a stock Debian system - without any file, that is.

However, if a user adds another repository with the "correct" vice-rom,
then he could get that one.

This way, it would be even possible to always create the right vice-rom
file automatically, and it could be pulled automatically, too.

However, I never see it materialize on the Debian system. :(

BTW, AFAIK, this is a big difference between Debian and Ubuntu: While
debian will never ship the ROM files, as they contain proprietary code,
Ubuntu does not put this burden on itself. That is, it could provide the
right ROM files.

But, as Ubuntu does exactly nothing to this package (like with many,
many other packages), no one has ever done this, so Ubuntu is in the
same "bad state" regarding VICE as Debian is.

So much for the advantages of Ubuntu...

Regards,
Spiro.

--
Spiro R. Trikaliotis
http://www.trikaliotis.net/

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