Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

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Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak

The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon
F-354E.  I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it to
work, even though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed
reasonable. I also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but their
jumpers are not marked, and I don't know how to set them.

I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD
mode.

PS I did try a mechanism from anothe 1581 and it does work.


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

geneb
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:

>
> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon F-354E.
> I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it to work, even
> though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed reasonable. I also have
> a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but their jumpers are not marked,
> and I don't know how to set them.
>
> I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD mode.
>
William, there's an issue of Commodore World that contains an article on
what you need to do in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.  Unfortunately,
I don't recall which issue it is.  The good news is that the IA has all of
them scanned and online.

https://archive.org/details/commodore-world

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

MikeS
Issue 25, p. 20.

Tnx, gene!

m

----- Original Message -----
From: "geneb" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581


> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:
>
>>
>> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped
>> working. It was a Chinon F-354E. I tried a
>> Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not
>> get it to work, even though I tried all the
>> jumper variations that seemed reasonable. I
>> also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac
>> FD-235HF, but their jumpers are not marked, and
>> I don't know how to set them.
>>
>> I know these are HD drives, but they should
>> also be able to work in DD mode.
>>
> William, there's an issue of Commodore World
> that contains an article on what you need to do
> in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.
> Unfortunately, I don't recall which issue it is.
> The good news is that the IA has all of them
> scanned and online.
>
> https://archive.org/details/commodore-world
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its
> kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated
> or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks
> collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management
> Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the
> classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>
>       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers
> mailing list


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

David Wood-2
This is what I did with my 1581's:

http://pix.jbevren.net/v/e/1851pc/

Bear in mind that the eject button won't line up with the 1581 faceplate.  I just have mine carefully packed away.

-David

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:17 PM, MikeS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Issue 25, p. 20.

Tnx, gene!

m

----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581



On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:


The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped
working. It was a Chinon F-354E. I tried a
Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not
get it to work, even though I tried all the
jumper variations that seemed reasonable. I
also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac
FD-235HF, but their jumpers are not marked, and
I don't know how to set them.

I know these are HD drives, but they should
also be able to work in DD mode.

William, there's an issue of Commodore World
that contains an article on what you need to do
in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.
Unfortunately, I don't recall which issue it is.
The good news is that the IA has all of them
scanned and online.

https://archive.org/details/commodore-world

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its
kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated
or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks
collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management
Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the
classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

      Message was sent through the cbm-hackers
mailing list


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

silverdr-2
In reply to this post by William Levak


On 2015-03-18 18:22, William Levak wrote:

> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon
> F-354E.  I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it
> to work, even though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed
> reasonable. I also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but
> their jumpers are not marked, and I don't know how to set them.
>
> I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD
> mode.
>
> PS I did try a mechanism from anothe 1581 and it does work.

In addition to what's been said: if you get an el cheapo, broken Amiga
500 (or 2000) with a working drive then you should be able to have a
drop-in replacement.

--
SD!

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

geneb
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, [hidden email] wrote:

>
>
> On 2015-03-18 18:22, William Levak wrote:
>
>> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon
>> F-354E.  I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it
>> to work, even though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed
>> reasonable. I also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but
>> their jumpers are not marked, and I don't know how to set them.
>>
>> I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD
>> mode.
>>
>> PS I did try a mechanism from anothe 1581 and it does work.
>
> In addition to what's been said: if you get an el cheapo, broken Amiga 500
> (or 2000) with a working drive then you should be able to have a drop-in
> replacement.
The only caveat with that is that the button is too short.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

smf
I used a drive from a circa 1989 A500 and it was the right size.

On 20/03/2015 02:30, geneb wrote:
> The only caveat with that is that the button is too short.
>
> g.
>


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

geneb
On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, smf wrote:

> I used a drive from a circa 1989 A500 and it was the right size.
>
The button is the right size, but the length is wrong.  The button doesn't
extend past the face of the 1581 enclosure like it would with the original
drive.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

Konrad B
In reply to this post by smf
Some time ago someone offered 3-D printed eject buttons on Amibay.
This way you could use a modern PC drive with Amiga/1581 (well, those
that could be "hacked") and have the eject button in the right place.

Regards,
Konrad

2015-03-20 11:20 GMT+00:00 smf <[hidden email]>:

> I used a drive from a circa 1989 A500 and it was the right size.
>
> On 20/03/2015 02:30, geneb wrote:
>>
>> The only caveat with that is that the button is too short.
>>
>> g.
>>
>
>
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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

silverdr-2
In reply to this post by geneb
On 2015-03-20 03:30, geneb wrote:

>> In addition to what's been said: if you get an el cheapo, broken Amiga
>> 500 (or 2000) with a working drive then you should be able to have a
>> drop-in replacement.
> The only caveat with that is that the button is too short.

Unless there are different casing variants (similarly to 1541-II),
A500's drive should be a 100% drop-in replacement. A2000's need front
bezel removal obviously and may come in various shapes so basically only
the Chinons from A2000 can be safely bet on.

--
SD!

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

smf
In reply to this post by geneb
I never had that problem.

On 20/03/2015 11:57, geneb wrote:
> The button doesn't extend past the face of the 1581 enclosure like it
> would with the original drive.
>
> g.
>


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak
In reply to this post by geneb
On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, geneb wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:
>
>>
>> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon
>> F-354E. I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it to
>> work, even though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed reasonable.
>> I also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but their jumpers are
>> not marked, and I don't know how to set them.
>>
>> I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD
>> mode.
>>
> William, there's an issue of Commodore World that contains an article on what
> you need to do in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.  Unfortunately, I don't
> recall which issue it is.  The good news is that the IA has all of them
> scanned and online.
>
> https://archive.org/details/commodore-world

I looked up the article. Unfortunately, it's a little vague.

You cut lines 3 and 34, and juper line 2 to ground.

I can't make out what jumpers 1 and 2 do. The directions for jumper 2 say
to connect the open end of R2 to pin 34.  Does this mean that the line
that was line 3 is now line 34?  For jumper 1, it says connect the end of
r15 to ground. Does that mean that the remaining end of line 3 is
grounded?

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

silverdr-2
On 2015-03-26 04:03, William Levak wrote:

>> William, there's an issue of Commodore World that contains an article
>> on what you need to do in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.
>> Unfortunately, I don't recall which issue it is.  The good news is
>> that the IA has all of them scanned and online.
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/commodore-world
>
> I looked up the article. Unfortunately, it's a little vague.
>
> You cut lines 3 and 34, and juper line 2 to ground.
>
> I can't make out what jumpers 1 and 2 do. The directions for jumper 2
> say to connect the open end of R2 to pin 34.  Does this mean that the
> line that was line 3 is now line 34?  For jumper 1, it says connect the
> end of r15 to ground. Does that mean that the remaining end of line 3 is
> grounded?

Which issue the article is in? Could you link us to it?

Basically it is the same modification that is needed for using the cost
reduced PC drives in the Amigas. If you look up publications on Amiga
mods rather than 1581 mods (should be more of them available) then it
will be the same what is needed here. Out of my head it was swapping the
_CHNG and RDY lines but details were available in various publications.

--
SD!

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

Konrad B
Guys, Google does not bite ;)

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=43265

FZ-357:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=9365

This is all applicable to the 1581 as well.

2015-03-26 10:31 GMT+01:00  <[hidden email]>:

> On 2015-03-26 04:03, William Levak wrote:
>
>>> William, there's an issue of Commodore World that contains an article
>>> on what you need to do in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.
>>> Unfortunately, I don't recall which issue it is.  The good news is
>>> that the IA has all of them scanned and online.
>>>
>>> https://archive.org/details/commodore-world
>>
>>
>> I looked up the article. Unfortunately, it's a little vague.
>>
>> You cut lines 3 and 34, and juper line 2 to ground.
>>
>> I can't make out what jumpers 1 and 2 do. The directions for jumper 2
>> say to connect the open end of R2 to pin 34.  Does this mean that the
>> line that was line 3 is now line 34?  For jumper 1, it says connect the
>> end of r15 to ground. Does that mean that the remaining end of line 3 is
>> grounded?
>
>
> Which issue the article is in? Could you link us to it?
>
> Basically it is the same modification that is needed for using the cost
> reduced PC drives in the Amigas. If you look up publications on Amiga mods
> rather than 1581 mods (should be more of them available) then it will be the
> same what is needed here. Out of my head it was swapping the _CHNG and RDY
> lines but details were available in various publications.
>
> --
> SD!
>
>
>       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak
In reply to this post by William Levak
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, geneb wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The drive mechanism for my 1581 has stopped working. It was a Chinon
>>> F-354E. I tried a Chinon FZ-357 as a replacement.  I could not get it to
>>> work, even though I tried all the jumper variations that seemed
>>> reasonable. I also have a Newtronics D359T3 and a Teac FD-235HF, but their
>>> jumpers are not marked, and I don't know how to set them.
>>>
>>> I know these are HD drives, but they should also be able to work in DD
>>> mode.
>>>
>> William, there's an issue of Commodore World that contains an article on
>> what you need to do in order to use an HD mech in a 1581.  Unfortunately, I
>> don't recall which issue it is.  The good news is that the IA has all of
>> them scanned and online.
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/commodore-world
>
> I looked up the article. Unfortunately, it's a little vague.
>
> You cut lines 3 and 34, and juper line 2 to ground.
>
> I can't make out what jumpers 1 and 2 do. The directions for jumper 2 say to
> connect the open end of R2 to pin 34.  Does this mean that the line that was
> line 3 is now line 34?  For jumper 1, it says connect the end of r15 to
> ground. Does that mean that the remaining end of line 3 is grounded?

After lookin through all the specifications on the 1581 and PC connectors,
I have concluded that it is not necessary to alter the 1581's system
board.  All that is necessary is to modify the cable connecting the drive
mechanism to the system board.

                 PC     1581
disk change     34      2
density select   2     not available, connect to signal ground
                        (any odd numbered line except 1)

Line 3 is not connected on the PC, but it might be on a drive mechanism,
so it is best to avoid that line.

Lines that are connected to +5V have a pull up resistor; lines that are
connected to ground do not, so I do not need a resistor on "density
select".

In addition, the PC interface has lines for a second drive which are not
connected to anything on the 1581, but the corresponding signal grounds
are connected to ground (13, 17). The PC does not use lines 4 or 6, but
their grounds are connected (5, 7).

Line 5 looks like the best choice for grounding "density select".



Some drive mechanisms have jumper blocks on them.  Now that I know which
lines need changing, I can try using an ohmmeter to see if I can jumper
them.


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:

> After lookin through all the specifications on the 1581 and PC connectors, I
> have concluded that it is not necessary to alter the 1581's system board.
> All that is necessary is to modify the cable connecting the drive mechanism
> to the system board.
>
>                PC     1581
> disk change     34      2
> density select   2     not available, connect to signal ground
>                       (any odd numbered line except 1)
>
> Line 3 is not connected on the PC, but it might be on a drive mechanism, so
> it is best to avoid that line.
>
> Lines that are connected to +5V have a pull up resistor; lines that are
> connected to ground do not, so I do not need a resistor on "density select".
>
> In addition, the PC interface has lines for a second drive which are not
> connected to anything on the 1581, but the corresponding signal grounds are
> connected to ground (13, 17). The PC does not use lines 4 or 6, but their
> grounds are connected (5, 7).
>
> Line 5 looks like the best choice for grounding "density select".

I have tried several variations on this and it does not work.

Maybe someone out there can see what I am doing wrong.

This is what I have tried:

     PC floppy      1581 board
       line 2        ground       puts density select in DD
       line 34       line 2       connects PC disk change to 1581 disk change
                     line 34      Ready line

I have tried several ways of connecting 1581 line 34 to ground, but the
drive says "drive not ready"

Any suggestions?


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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

David Ross
It’s been a long time since I did this mod, but I had to put a resistor on the disk change line. I don’t know if any particular value is needed and I don’t have a 1581 to test on anymore. I just grabbed something out of my parts box.

> On Apr 17, 2015, at 4:32 PM, William Levak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2015, William Levak wrote:
>
>> After lookin through all the specifications on the 1581 and PC connectors, I have concluded that it is not necessary to alter the 1581's system board. All that is necessary is to modify the cable connecting the drive mechanism to the system board.
>>
>>               PC     1581
>> disk change     34      2
>> density select   2     not available, connect to signal ground
>>                      (any odd numbered line except 1)
>>
>> Line 3 is not connected on the PC, but it might be on a drive mechanism, so it is best to avoid that line.
>>
>> Lines that are connected to +5V have a pull up resistor; lines that are connected to ground do not, so I do not need a resistor on "density select".
>>
>> In addition, the PC interface has lines for a second drive which are not connected to anything on the 1581, but the corresponding signal grounds are connected to ground (13, 17). The PC does not use lines 4 or 6, but their grounds are connected (5, 7).
>>
>> Line 5 looks like the best choice for grounding "density select".
>
> I have tried several variations on this and it does not work.
>
> Maybe someone out there can see what I am doing wrong.
>
> This is what I have tried:
>
>    PC floppy      1581 board
>      line 2        ground       puts density select in DD
>      line 34       line 2       connects PC disk change to 1581 disk change
>                    line 34      Ready line
>
> I have tried several ways of connecting 1581 line 34 to ground, but the drive says "drive not ready"
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> [hidden email]
> SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
>
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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak
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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

William Levak
In reply to this post by David Ross

Below is a diagram of the cable I am using. Dashed lines indicate changes.
The 1581 information comes from the 1581 service manual. The PC
information comes from the IBM PS/Valuepoint Hardware Maintenanve Manual,
except for pins 1, 3, and 5.  There does not appear to be any agreement on
what should be on these pins, so I have listed what I have found on a
number of HD drives.


  PC Drive B                                     1581

  Gnd/NC           1                        1    NC
-Density Select   2 <---------,   ,------> 2    -Disk Chg (pulled up to 5V)
  Gnd/NC/no pin    3           '-- | -------3    Gnd
  NC               4               |        4    NC
  Gnd/NC           5               |        5    Gnd
  NC               6               |        6    NC
-Index            8 >             |      > 8   -IP (pulled up to 5V)
-Motor Enable 0  10 <             |      < 10   Gnd
-Drive select 1  12 <------------ | --,  < 12   NC
  Gnd             13               |   '--- 13   Gnd
-Drive Select 0  14 <             |      < 14   NC
-Motor Enable 1  16 <             |      < 16  -Motor On
-Direction       18 <             |      < 18  -Dirc
-Step            20 <             |      < 20  -Step
-Write Data      22 >             |      > 22  -WD
-Write Enable    24 <             |      < 24  -WG
-Track 0         26 >             |      > 26  -Tr00 (pulled up to 5V)
-Write Protect   28 >             |      > 28  -WPrt (pulled up to 5V)
-Read Data       30 >             |      > 30  -RD (pulled up to 5V)
-Select Head 1   32 <             |      < 32   Side 0
  Gnd             33 ------------- | --,    33   Gnd
-Disk Change     34 >-------------'   '--> 34  -Rdy (pulled up to 5V)
  Gnd        7,9,11,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31   Gnd

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Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581

Mike Stein
Have you looked at any of the articles & posts about modding a 'standard' PC-type drive for use in an Amiga? I've never tried it but it sounds like the same issues and relatively simple mods:

-Lock in DD mode (disconnect & ground pin 2)
-Move DC to pin2
-Add RY on pin 34
-Set drive to DS0 with switch or jumper.

Some examples:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=30944

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?18582-Modifying-PC-Floppy-Drive-for-Amiga-Use

I think your cable has a few issues as well, mainly around the drive and motor selects; looks like you're looking at the PC signal definitions/functions and not the actual disk drive meanings...

m

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Levak" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: Replacement drive mechanism for 1581


>
> Below is a diagram of the cable I am using. Dashed lines indicate changes.
> The 1581 information comes from the 1581 service manual. The PC
> information comes from the IBM PS/Valuepoint Hardware Maintenanve Manual,
> except for pins 1, 3, and 5.  There does not appear to be any agreement on
> what should be on these pins, so I have listed what I have found on a
> number of HD drives.
>
>
>  PC Drive B                                     1581
>
>  Gnd/NC           1                        1    NC
> -Density Select   2 <---------,   ,------> 2    -Disk Chg (pulled up to 5V)
>  Gnd/NC/no pin    3           '-- | -------3    Gnd
>  NC               4               |        4    NC
>  Gnd/NC           5               |        5    Gnd
>  NC               6               |        6    NC
> -Index            8 >             |      > 8   -IP (pulled up to 5V)
> -Motor Enable 0  10 <             |      < 10   Gnd
> -Drive select 1  12 <------------ | --,  < 12   NC
>  Gnd             13               |   '--- 13   Gnd
> -Drive Select 0  14 <             |      < 14   NC
> -Motor Enable 1  16 <             |      < 16  -Motor On
> -Direction       18 <             |      < 18  -Dirc
> -Step            20 <             |      < 20  -Step
> -Write Data      22 >             |      > 22  -WD
> -Write Enable    24 <             |      < 24  -WG
> -Track 0         26 >             |      > 26  -Tr00 (pulled up to 5V)
> -Write Protect   28 >             |      > 28  -WPrt (pulled up to 5V)
> -Read Data       30 >             |      > 30  -RD (pulled up to 5V)
> -Select Head 1   32 <             |      < 32   Side 0
>  Gnd             33 ------------- | --,    33   Gnd
> -Disk Change     34 >-------------'   '--> 34  -Rdy (pulled up to 5V)
>  Gnd        7,9,11,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31   Gnd
>
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