Re: Mailing list changes

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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

You are welcome!

I've changed the configuration so that the original "To:" header is now
preserved. Will check when this mail comes back via the list. According to the
mlmmj docs this is not the recommended behavior. Is there any reason you need
the old behavior?

Regards


        Uz



On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 02:48:46PM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:11:18PM -0700, geneb wrote:
> > On Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
> > >as some of you might know, the mailing list has been using the majordomo
> > >mailing list manager for ages. Yes majordomo is old, but so are the
> > >computers
> > >we're talking about on the list.
> > >
> > Thanks for the info (and running the list!)..
>
> Same from me, thanks Ullrich!
>
> The new mailing list changes mail headers so that all mails from the
> list seem to be addressed to me (and only to me) (for me that is;
> presumably not for the other subscribers).  Can this be changed?  Mangling
> mail headers is very bad form, and a practical problem as well.
>
>
> Segher

--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
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Re: Mailing list changes

Segher Boessenkool
On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:37:16PM +0100, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
>
> You are welcome!
>
> I've changed the configuration so that the original "To:" header is now
> preserved. Will check when this mail comes back via the list. According to the
> mlmmj docs this is not the recommended behavior. Is there any reason you need
> the old behavior?

That works, thanks!

Any email addressed only to me is flagged in my mail reader.  Because it
is probably something that requires my immediate attention.  If now mailing
lists start to do this rewriting this will no longer stand out.

Rewriting emails makes it impossible to make a mailing list archive
from a subscriber account, since the email is different for every
subscriber.  This also makes it impossible to just import emails if
you missed some, as well.  Etc.

Rewriting emails is just bad.  Don't do it.  Who is recommending that?!


Segher

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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

What you say sounds a bit old-fashioned, but this list is partially
old-fashioned so it's ok:)

There is RFC 2919 (from 2001) that describes the "List-Id" header. It was set
even by my old majordomo list manager. Most of todays mailing lists set this
header. Filtering should be based on this header, not on the "To:" field.
There's also a "Precedence:" header that marks the email as coming from a
list.

Anyway, as long as no one complains, I will leave the headers as they are now.
It worked for years with majordomo. Thanks for the feedback!

Regards


        Uz


On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 05:03:52PM -0500, Segher Boessenkool wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:37:16PM +0100, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
> >
> > You are welcome!
> >
> > I've changed the configuration so that the original "To:" header is now
> > preserved. Will check when this mail comes back via the list. According to the
> > mlmmj docs this is not the recommended behavior. Is there any reason you need
> > the old behavior?
>
> That works, thanks!
>
> Any email addressed only to me is flagged in my mail reader.  Because it
> is probably something that requires my immediate attention.  If now mailing
> lists start to do this rewriting this will no longer stand out.
>
> Rewriting emails makes it impossible to make a mailing list archive
> from a subscriber account, since the email is different for every
> subscriber.  This also makes it impossible to just import emails if
> you missed some, as well.  Etc.
>
> Rewriting emails is just bad.  Don't do it.  Who is recommending that?!
>
>
> Segher

--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
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Re: Mailing list changes

Clockmeister
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
Noted thank you. Hopefully this mail works, so it's a bit of a test as well.



On 13/03/2018 2:29 AM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:

> Hello,
>
> as some of you might know, the mailing list has been using the majordomo
> mailing list manager for ages. Yes majordomo is old, but so are the computers
> we're talking about on the list.
>
> When moving the mail server to new hardware and a newer centos version today,
> I wasn't able to get majordomo running. This came a bit unexpected. It seems
> that the new perl version that comes with centos 7 broke parts of majordomo,
> and I wasn't able to fix that within a hour or two, so I decided to move to a
> new mailing list manager. I'm using mlmmj now, which involves a few changes as
> listed below.
>
> For one, mlmmj is new to me, so there might be configuration problems. If you
> think something doesn't work as expected, please send me a private mail (off
> list) so I can have a look at it. I will tweak the configuration over the next
> few days/weeks.
>
> Next, I had a special majordomo setup that allowed several users to post from
> mail addresses not subscribed to the list. This is gone. If you post to the
> list from an address not subscribed to the list, the mail is not accepted
> (sent to the list).
>
> Finally, the commands to subscribe/unsubscribe have changed:
>
> To subscribe, send an email to [hidden email]. It can
> have any subject and/or content. Reply to the confirmation request and you're
> on the list.
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to [hidden email]. You
> will need to confirm this one, too.
>
> There's also a help function that lists several other features not available
> with majordomo, like subscribing to a list digest. Send email to
> [hidden email] to receive the help text.
>
> I've manually moved all subscribers from majordomo to mlmmj, so there's no
> need for immediate action for anybody on the list.
>
> If you have questions or suggestions, please let me know.
>
> Regards
>
>
>          Uz
>
>


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Re: Mailing list changes

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
On 03/12/2018 11:22 PM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
>
> What you say sounds a bit old-fashioned, but this list is partially
> old-fashioned so it's ok:)
>
> There is RFC 2919 (from 2001) that describes the "List-Id" header. It was set
> even by my old majordomo list manager. Most of todays mailing lists set this
> header. Filtering should be based on this header, not on the "To:" field.
> There's also a "Precedence:" header that marks the email as coming from a
> list.

There is only the little problem that Thunderbird does not allow me to
filter for these fields. But it can filter for 'To:' without problems.

You might still want to set the reply-to: Header BTW, otherwise a simple
reply will not go to the list as it did before.

  Gerrit




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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

Reply-To is already set to the list. So by just hitting "answer", mails should
go to the list.

Regards


        Uz


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 07:47:33AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

> On 03/12/2018 11:22 PM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
> >
> >What you say sounds a bit old-fashioned, but this list is partially
> >old-fashioned so it's ok:)
> >
> >There is RFC 2919 (from 2001) that describes the "List-Id" header. It was set
> >even by my old majordomo list manager. Most of todays mailing lists set this
> >header. Filtering should be based on this header, not on the "To:" field.
> >There's also a "Precedence:" header that marks the email as coming from a
> >list.
>
> There is only the little problem that Thunderbird does not allow me to
> filter for these fields. But it can filter for 'To:' without problems.
>
> You might still want to set the reply-to: Header BTW, otherwise a simple
> reply will not go to the list as it did before.
>
>  Gerrit
>
>
>

--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
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Re: Mailing list changes

Christer Palm-2
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch
On 03/13/2018 07:47 AM, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> There is only the little problem that Thunderbird does not allow me to
> filter for these fields. But it can filter for 'To:' without problems.
>
> You might still want to set the reply-to: Header BTW, otherwise a
> simple reply will not go to the list as it did before.
In Thunderbird, choose "Customize..." at the bottom of the field
selection drop down in the filter rule editor. Then just type any header
name you'd like to use for filtering and hit Add. This allows you to add
arbitrary headers to the list.

Regards,
Christer

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Re: Mailing list changes

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
On 03/13/2018 09:03 AM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
>
> Reply-To is already set to the list. So by just hitting "answer", mails should
> go to the list.

Unfortunatly not, I have to use 'reply all' to get to the list, if I
just hit 'reply', the mail is sent to the one who wrote it. With the old
software I only had to hit 'reply' to get to the list with 'reply-all'
doing the same.

When looking at the header, I also don't see a reply-to: line. I do see
a 'Mail-Followup-To:' set to the list. Does this behave differently?

  Gerrit




>
> Regards
>
>
>          Uz
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 07:47:33AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>> On 03/12/2018 11:22 PM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:
>>>
>>> What you say sounds a bit old-fashioned, but this list is partially
>>> old-fashioned so it's ok:)
>>>
>>> There is RFC 2919 (from 2001) that describes the "List-Id" header. It was set
>>> even by my old majordomo list manager. Most of todays mailing lists set this
>>> header. Filtering should be based on this header, not on the "To:" field.
>>> There's also a "Precedence:" header that marks the email as coming from a
>>> list.
>>
>> There is only the little problem that Thunderbird does not allow me to
>> filter for these fields. But it can filter for 'To:' without problems.
>>
>> You might still want to set the reply-to: Header BTW, otherwise a simple
>> reply will not go to the list as it did before.
>>
>>   Gerrit
>>
>>
>>
>


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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:34:45AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> When looking at the header, I also don't see a reply-to: line. I do see a
> 'Mail-Followup-To:' set to the list. Does this behave differently?

Strange. All mails I receive via the list have a "Reply-To:" header and this
is also what is configured. And, there is no "Mail-Followup-To:" header in the
mails.

Can someone else please check this?

Regards


        Uz


--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
Encrypted email preferred                          PGP Key-Id: 29D93B10

smf
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Re: Mailing list changes

smf
I'm using thunderbird and I have to hit "Reply List" for the reply to go
to the list, while if I hit "Reply" it goes to the author.

I've had issues with other mailing lists and I came to the conclusion
that Thunderbird is not necessarily doing the right thing.

On 13/03/2018 08:57, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:34:45AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>> When looking at the header, I also don't see a reply-to: line. I do see a
>> 'Mail-Followup-To:' set to the list. Does this behave differently?
> Strange. All mails I receive via the list have a "Reply-To:" header and this
> is also what is configured. And, there is no "Mail-Followup-To:" header in the
> mails.
>
> Can someone else please check this?
>
> Regards
>
>
>          Uz
>
>

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Re: Mailing list changes

Daniel O'Shea
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
On 13/03/18 19:27, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:

>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:34:45AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>> When looking at the header, I also don't see a reply-to: line. I do see a
>> 'Mail-Followup-To:' set to the list. Does this behave differently?
>
> Strange. All mails I receive via the list have a "Reply-To:" header and this
> is also what is configured. And, there is no "Mail-Followup-To:" header in the
> mails.
>
> Can someone else please check this?

I can see both Reply-To: and Mail-Followup-To: here...

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 09:57:38 +0100

From: Ullrich von Bassewitz <[hidden email]>

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Mailing list changes

Message-ID: <[hidden email]>

Mail-Followup-To: [hidden email]

References: <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

  <[hidden email]>

Errors-To: [hidden email]

List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>

List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>

List-Owner: <mailto:[hidden email]>

List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>

List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>

List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>

Precedence: list

Reply-To: [hidden email]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Content-Disposition: inline

In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>

User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)


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RE: Mailing list changes

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
Hallo Ullrich,


I just replied the message from Steve using the normal "Reply to" action so it works (if that is what you asked).

But.... Here at work I have to use Windows/Outlook and there is an option to make rules regarding incoming mail. One rule says to move any email containing "cbm-hackers" in the address to another folder. It worked for yeeeeears, until yesterday.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:06:51AM +0000, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
> But.... Here at work I have to use Windows/Outlook and there is an option to
> make rules regarding incoming mail. One rule says to move any email containing
> "cbm-hackers" in the address to another folder. It worked for yeeeeears, until
> yesterday.

majordomo was quite old, and didn't adhere to todays mailing list standards,
so I'm not able to configure mlmmj identical to the setup before. I'm sorry
for the inconvenience. As said before, the switch away from majordomo wasn't
planned and came quite unexpected.

I've been filtering using "List-Id" and this does still work with mlmmj. It is
also the recommended way. If anybody needs to adjust filter rules, my
suggestion would be to use this header field if possible.

Regards


        Uz


--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
Encrypted email preferred                          PGP Key-Id: 29D93B10

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Re: Mailing list changes

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz

> On 2018-03-13, at 09:57, Ullrich von Bassewitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:34:45AM +0100, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>> When looking at the header, I also don't see a reply-to: line. I do see a
>> 'Mail-Followup-To:' set to the list. Does this behave differently?
>
> Strange. All mails I receive via the list have a "Reply-To:" header and this
> is also what is configured. And, there is no "Mail-Followup-To:" header in the
> mails.
>
> Can someone else please check this?

Yup, strange - indeed. I get:

[...]
Mail-Followup-To: [hidden email]
References: <[hidden email]>
[...]
Errors-To: [hidden email]
List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
List-Owner: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
Precedence: list
Reply-To: [hidden email]
[...]

And seem to have no problems replying to the list by hitting simple "reply", as mandated by the presence of the "Reply-To" header. If Gerrit doesn't receive the said header then something smells fishy in the config as I don't expect any MTA to strip the config on the message's way. Are there any "groupings" of subscribers or anything that would differentiate how subscribers are "treated"?

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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Re: Mailing list changes

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Daniel O'Shea
On 03/13/2018 10:04 AM, Daniel O'Shea wrote:

>
> List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
>
> List-Owner: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> Precedence: list
>
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
>
> MIME-Version: 1.0

Very strange... If I look at the Header in Thunderbird, the Reply-To:
ist missing even though I have set 'Headers' to 'All', but if I save the
mail, it's there in the saved email. Is the 'Reply-To:' in the right
format? Not that thunderbird ignores it since it can't parse it for
whatever reason?

The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I hit
'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove that
before sending.

  Gerrit






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Re: Mailing list changes

Anders Carlsson
Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
> Very strange... If I look at the Header in Thunderbird, the Reply-To:
> ist missing even though I have set 'Headers' to 'All', but if I save
> the mail, it's there in the saved email. Is the 'Reply-To:' in the
> right format? Not that thunderbird ignores it since it can't parse it
> for whatever reason?
>
> The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I
> hit 'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove
> that before sending.
I am using Thunderbird 52 on an old XP machine. It allows me to Reply
(to author) or Reply to the list. I checked an ancient Outlook Express
6, where Reply defaults to the list and Reply all includes the list twice.

Regarding the headers, I noticed that in every mail so far there is a
Reply-To header, but ONLY in the mails posted by Uz', there is a
Mail-Followup-To header. For all the others on this list - Geneb,
Segher, Clockmeister, Christer, Ruud, Smf, Daniel, Gerrit and whoever I
may have forgotten - the list software doesn't include the
Mail-Followup-To header which makes me wonder if that is a header added
by Mutt which seems to be Uz' email client, rather than the list software.

Best regards

Anders Carlsson


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Re: Mailing list changes

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch

> On 2018-03-13, at 11:02, Gerrit Heitsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 03/13/2018 10:04 AM, Daniel O'Shea wrote:
>> List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
>> List-Owner: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Precedence: list
>> Reply-To: [hidden email]
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>
> Very strange... If I look at the Header in Thunderbird, the Reply-To: ist missing even though I have set 'Headers' to 'All', but if I save the mail, it's there in the saved email.

Yeah, you should always look at "Raw Source" and compare it with what the program "sees".

> Is the 'Reply-To:' in the right format? Not that thunderbird ignores it since it can't parse it for whatever reason?

It looks just as it looked before. The reason must be in the other headers ("Precedence"?) or order of the headers.

Before it was e. g.:

[...]
Sender: [hidden email]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: [hidden email]
List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>

> The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I hit 'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove that before sending.

That's actually correct.

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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Re: Mailing list changes

Ullrich von Bassewitz

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:22:41AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> Before it was e. g.:
>
> [...]
> Sender: [hidden email]
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
> List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
>
> > The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I hit 'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove that before sending.
>
> That's actually correct.

The order of the headers shouldn't really matter. The text in this link:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/stop-ignoring-reply-to/

seems to say that this is actually a change in later versions of thunderbird.
This would explain why the problem seems to related to thunderbird. Could
those using thunderbird try the addon?

Regards


        Uz


--
Ullrich von Bassewitz                                  [hidden email]
Encrypted email preferred                          PGP Key-Id: 29D93B10

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Re: Mailing list changes

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2018-03-13, at 13:22, Ullrich von Bassewitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:22:41AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Before it was e. g.:
>>
>> [...]
>> Sender: [hidden email]
>> Precedence: bulk
>> Reply-To: [hidden email]
>> List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
>>
>>> The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I hit 'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove that before sending.
>>
>> That's actually correct.
>
> The order of the headers shouldn't really matter.

It shouldn't. But if it worked before and stopped after, then there has to be a direct reason for that, even if indirect one would be f. e. buggy Thunderbird implementation of headers parsing.

Can you change the "Precedence:" header's value?

> The text in this link:
>
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/stop-ignoring-reply-to/
>
> seems to say that this is actually a change in later versions of thunderbird.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/52.4.0/releasenotes/

and it's called "improvement"....


> This would explain why the problem seems to related to thunderbird. Could
> those using thunderbird try the addon?

Or set the preference. But it would still be good to know if setting precedence to "bulk" rather than "list" would work the problem around.

--
SD!


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Re: Mailing list changes

Gerrit Heitsch
In reply to this post by Ullrich von Bassewitz
On 03/13/2018 01:22 PM, Ullrich von Bassewitz wrote:

>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:22:41AM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Before it was e. g.:
>>
>> [...]
>> Sender: [hidden email]
>> Precedence: bulk
>> Reply-To: [hidden email]
>> List-Id: "CBM Hackers Mailing List" <cbm-hackers.list-id.musoftware.de>
>>
>>> The annoying part is that it still ignores the Reply-To: and when I hit 'reply-all', it also sends the email to the author unless I remove that before sending.
>>
>> That's actually correct.
>
> The order of the headers shouldn't really matter. The text in this link:
>
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/stop-ignoring-reply-to/
>
> seems to say that this is actually a change in later versions of thunderbird.
> This would explain why the problem seems to related to thunderbird. Could
> those using thunderbird try the addon?

That seems to work.

  Gerrit


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