Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

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Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Francesco Messineo
I didn't want to hijack the original thread, so subject edited...

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:12 PM, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:


>>
>
> Interesting!
>
> I've had trouble programming ordinary 2732's with my Hi-Lo ALL-03. Had
> to restart the programming a bunch of times, each 256 byte block (or
> whatever size the programmer use) would fail one or more times and
> after some retries it would read back correct and the programmer would
> go on to the next block and the procedure would repeat.

A couple of suggestions:
1) Always try to match manufacturer and exact variant of the EPROM
when programming it,
    as it was common to change for example the Vpp or suggested
algorithm and just add an A/B/C letter after the part number (or even
worse, change the prefix).
2)  Always verify the programmer is working well wiith respect to
voltages and timings.
For example, my old Hi-Lo uses an ISA card and would never respect the
required timings if
installed on a 486 class machine (yes, it's old) with a regular DOS
installation.
I had to run it under linux/dosemu that allowed me to configure a
lower clock speed.
Where procedures and manuals were available (like on the Data I/O
units) I completed the test and calibration procedures making sure all
voltages are in spec. Of course I've also checked for bad capacitors
and other electronic faults when I acquired them.
Particularly bad is the Digelec 824 because no manual or schematic
could be found for it, so I can't find why it fails on some types and
works on others.

>
> I'm not really sure what causes this, I haven't really investigated. It
> doesn't look like there are loads of bad capacitors in the programmer,
> which could otherwise explain it.

as any other old electronic device, it must be kept in good shape :)

>
> Btw I remember a friend had a programmer called "SmallProg" for Amiga.
> It would program most cmos eprom fine, but when we tried programming
> old 2764's it would just fail. We ended up soldering a wire onto the
> point between it's 21V generator and the transistor that switches VPP,
> and hooking up a small 12V lead acid battery in series with +12V from
> the Amiga to provide about 24V DC directly to the programmer, then it
> did burn the 2764's fine.


oh my... :)
I started in the '80s with a locally made clone of the C64 based Promenade C1,
it worked (and still does) fine. What I liked about it, is the
complete configurability of voltages and algorithm, but you must read
the part datasheet before deciding what program options you should
use.
It never failed a programming (unless a part was bad).

> I assume it would had worked changing the (proprietary) software to
> program the eprom far slower, i.e. a short puls and then let the charge
> pump recover from the load, instead of trying to program as fast as the
> eproms are specified to be programmed.t

most algorithms are interactive anyway.
Wrong Vpp (higher) is an EPROM instant killer (don't ask how I know it).

Frank

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

MiaM
Den Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:53:43 +0200 skrev Francesco Messineo
<[hidden email]>:

> I didn't want to hijack the original thread, so subject edited...
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:12 PM, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> >>
> >
> > Interesting!
> >
> > I've had trouble programming ordinary 2732's with my Hi-Lo ALL-03.
> > Had to restart the programming a bunch of times, each 256 byte
> > block (or whatever size the programmer use) would fail one or more
> > times and after some retries it would read back correct and the
> > programmer would go on to the next block and the procedure would
> > repeat.
>
> A couple of suggestions:
> 1) Always try to match manufacturer and exact variant of the EPROM
> when programming it,
>     as it was common to change for example the Vpp or suggested
> algorithm and just add an A/B/C letter after the part number (or even
> worse, change the prefix).

I'm rather sure I selected the right manufacturer and model.

> 2)  Always verify the programmer is working well wiith respect to
> voltages and timings.
> For example, my old Hi-Lo uses an ISA card and would never respect the
> required timings if
> installed on a 486 class machine (yes, it's old) with a regular DOS
> installation.
> I had to run it under linux/dosemu that allowed me to configure a
> lower clock speed.
> Where procedures and manuals were available (like on the Data I/O
> units) I completed the test and calibration procedures making sure all
> voltages are in spec. Of course I've also checked for bad capacitors
> and other electronic faults when I acquired them.
> Particularly bad is the Digelec 824 because no manual or schematic
> could be found for it, so I can't find why it fails on some types and
> works on others.

Oh, the speed of the computer must be the problem then. I'm running it
on a Pentium 166 MMX which actually runs Windows XP, and I'm using
patched versions of the DOS software with a special driver allowing the
DOS software to access the I/O ports directly.

Too bad that I'm really no good at debugging DOS binaries. Otherwise it
would be nice to patch the delay loops.

Or what should really be done is reimplement the software but using all
existing definitions files.

I've read about a project making a new USB based interface for the HiLo
eprom programmers, but it seems noone actually did make any usable
software for ut.

Maybe I'll just have to place it in an older computer. I don't have
much left that's older than a 486 though, except a Panasonic Senior
Parther portable 8088 machine with CRT and built in printer (!). Maybe
I'll have to have a look at dosemu+linux.

Or preferable repair my broken Unisite. First the hard disk (!) in it
died, and when I tried replacing it something else broke which resultet
in it almost only saying some kind of bus error message on the terminal
port. Probably due to me not observing ESD handling procedure :/

> > I'm not really sure what causes this, I haven't really
> > investigated. It doesn't look like there are loads of bad
> > capacitors in the programmer, which could otherwise explain it.
>
> as any other old electronic device, it must be kept in good shape :)

True :)

> > Btw I remember a friend had a programmer called "SmallProg" for
> > Amiga. It would program most cmos eprom fine, but when we tried
> > programming old 2764's it would just fail. We ended up soldering a
> > wire onto the point between it's 21V generator and the transistor
> > that switches VPP, and hooking up a small 12V lead acid battery in
> > series with +12V from the Amiga to provide about 24V DC directly to
> > the programmer, then it did burn the 2764's fine.
>
> oh my... :)
> I started in the '80s with a locally made clone of the C64 based
> Promenade C1, it worked (and still does) fine. What I liked about it,
> is the complete configurability of voltages and algorithm, but you
> must read the part datasheet before deciding what program options you
> should use.
> It never failed a programming (unless a part was bad).

Interesting! I wish I had an eprom programmer back in the days, or knew
how to build one. Today it seems trivial and I might actually had
succeded building one back in the 80's if I had todays knowledge :)

> > I assume it would had worked changing the (proprietary) software to
> > program the eprom far slower, i.e. a short puls and then let the
> > charge pump recover from the load, instead of trying to program as
> > fast as the eproms are specified to be programmed.t
>
> most algorithms are interactive anyway.
> Wrong Vpp (higher) is an EPROM instant killer (don't ask how I know
> it).

:O



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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Francesco Messineo
On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 7:27 PM, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Den Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:53:43 +0200 skrev Francesco Messineo
> <[hidden email]>:

>
>> 2)  Always verify the programmer is working well wiith respect to
>> voltages and timings.
>> For example, my old Hi-Lo uses an ISA card and would never respect the
>> required timings if
>> installed on a 486 class machine (yes, it's old) with a regular DOS
>> installation.
>> I had to run it under linux/dosemu that allowed me to configure a
>> lower clock speed.
>> Where procedures and manuals were available (like on the Data I/O
>> units) I completed the test and calibration procedures making sure all
>> voltages are in spec. Of course I've also checked for bad capacitors
>> and other electronic faults when I acquired them.
>> Particularly bad is the Digelec 824 because no manual or schematic
>> could be found for it, so I can't find why it fails on some types and
>> works on others.
>
> Oh, the speed of the computer must be the problem then. I'm running it
> on a Pentium 166 MMX which actually runs Windows XP, and I'm using
> patched versions of the DOS software with a special driver allowing the
> DOS software to access the I/O ports directly.

I don't know about the newer Hi-Lo softwares, but the old EPP-xx series would
not calibrate the timings on anything faster that 10 MHz, at least
that was how I setup the emulator to make it work.


>
> Maybe I'll just have to place it in an older computer. I don't have
> much left that's older than a 486 though, except a Panasonic Senior
> Parther portable 8088 machine with CRT and built in printer (!). Maybe
> I'll have to have a look at dosemu+linux.

I'm thinking since some time to move the Hi-Lo with the ISA board to
an Olivetti M24 with native DOS installation, so  I could get rid of
the very old Linux+dosemu.
Newer versions of dosemu are practically useless when it comes to
access the  hardware, I can't even make a serial port to work inside
dosemu anymore (and it's not me, I'm sure).

>
> Or preferable repair my broken Unisite. First the hard disk (!) in it
> died, and when I tried replacing it something else broke which resultet
> in it almost only saying some kind of bus error message on the terminal
> port. Probably due to me not observing ESD handling procedure :/

well, that can happen... I think there's a lot of documentation around
for the unisite, there's also a data i/o group on yahoo where one can
ask for help and informations

>> I started in the '80s with a locally made clone of the C64 based
>> Promenade C1, it worked (and still does) fine. What I liked about it,
>> is the complete configurability of voltages and algorithm, but you
>> must read the part datasheet before deciding what program options you
>> should use.
>> It never failed a programming (unless a part was bad).
>
> Interesting! I wish I had an eprom programmer back in the days, or knew
> how to build one. Today it seems trivial and I might actually had
> succeded building one back in the 80's if I had todays knowledge :)

I couldn't make my own in the '80s for sure (I was 11 y.o. when I
first had a VIC-20), but sometimes in 1985 some friends had the the
opportunity to borrow a Promenade C1 programmer for a few days, we
took detailed pictures, measured continuity on the tracks that ran
under the ICs to make sure we could redraw it and etched a few boards
:)
The worst PCB (that we forgot too long in the etching bath) become my
own, since nobody felt like repairing the weak tracks and I couldn't
afford to buy another blank PCB and all the parts.
I fixed the few broken tracks with patience and it worked well since then.
A few years later I could even buy a textool socket for

Frank

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Christian Dirks
Am 18.07.2018 um 21:16 schrieb Francesco Messineo:
>
> I don't know about the newer Hi-Lo softwares, but the old EPP-xx series would
> not calibrate the timings on anything faster that 10 MHz, at least
> that was how I setup the emulator to make it work.
>
I use my Hi-Lo ALL-03 on a Pentium 4 / 2,4 GHz (there are a few P4
boards with ISA) with MS-DOS 6.22 and it works fine.



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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Nils Eilers
On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:32:01 +0200
Christian Dirks <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 18.07.2018 um 21:16 schrieb Francesco Messineo:
> >
> > I don't know about the newer Hi-Lo softwares, but the old EPP-xx series would
> > not calibrate the timings on anything faster that 10 MHz, at least
> > that was how I setup the emulator to make it work.
> >
> I use my Hi-Lo ALL-03 on a Pentium 4 / 2,4 GHz (there are a few P4
> boards with ISA) with MS-DOS 6.22 and it works fine.

I second that. Hi-Lo ALL-03 with a Pentium III @ 533 MHz, works like a charm. Software version is 9.12.

Nils

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

traymond160
Hope you don't mind me jumping in 
Will these older chip programmers work in Windows10 it sucks because it won't work with older device driver's the drivers won't even install in Windows 10 I have found at least with older printers etc.

Terry Raymond 


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:28 PM Nils Eilers <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:32:01 +0200
Christian Dirks <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 18.07.2018 um 21:16 schrieb Francesco Messineo:
> >
> > I don't know about the newer Hi-Lo softwares, but the old EPP-xx series would
> > not calibrate the timings on anything faster that 10 MHz, at least
> > that was how I setup the emulator to make it work.
> >
> I use my Hi-Lo ALL-03 on a Pentium 4 / 2,4 GHz (there are a few P4
> boards with ISA) with MS-DOS 6.22 and it works fine.

I second that. Hi-Lo ALL-03 with a Pentium III @ 533 MHz, works like a charm. Software version is 9.12.

Nils

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Nils Eilers
> Will these older chip programmers work in Windows10 it sucks because it
> won't work with older device driver's the drivers won't even install in
> Windows 10 I have found at least with older printers etc.

The Hi-Lo ALL-03 comes with an ISA card, the software runs under MS-DOS. So you need a rather old PC to run an ALL-03.

The Hi-Lo ALL-11 uses a standard serial interface, perhaps that will work with an USB-serial-adapter and maybe even under Win 10. I don't own one though, so I can't say much more about it.

-Nils

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

MiaM
Den Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:24:30 +0200 skrev Nils Eilers
<[hidden email]>:
> > Will these older chip programmers work in Windows10 it sucks
> > because it won't work with older device driver's the drivers won't
> > even install in Windows 10 I have found at least with older
> > printers etc.
>
> The Hi-Lo ALL-03 comes with an ISA card, the software runs under
> MS-DOS. So you need a rather old PC to run an ALL-03.

IIRC this is true for the ALL-07 too. (ALL-07 is the one that looks
like a cheese ;) ).

Btw a person here in Sweden has made replicas of the ISA cards for
these old programmers. If anyone has a programmer but lacks the card,
he might have some extra cards to sell for a reasonable price.

Btw not sure what the hardware requirements for Windows 10 are, but I
assume that a Pentium III, which is about the fastest that has ISA
slots, might be too slow.

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RE: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
> Btw not sure what the hardware requirements for Windows 10 are, but I
> assume that a Pentium III, which is about the fastest that has ISA slots, might
> be too slow.

Why would one have to run W10? Why not an older Windows that suits the machine? I have several machines running the combination of W98SE and XP: 98 is DOS only for my real time applications, XP because it is accepted by W7 and higher on the network. Several machines run XP only. These are package 3 versions, installed clean from the CD. No further update or whatever. But then I don't visit Internet with these machines, that I'll do with my modern well protected and updated laptop. It worked out fine for years already.
An example: modern PCs only accept one floppy drive these days. So I Found this older P3 Fujitsu and installed a 1.44 MB, 1.2 MB drive and XP. I now use it to create images of various floppies that I find or are given for this purpose.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

smf
On 25/07/2018 06:45, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
> Why would one have to run W10? Why not an older Windows that suits the machine?

I assume the original question about Windows 10 is because they have a
machine and don't want the cost/hassle/waste of space for another machine.

Having your eprom programmer hooked up to a laptop can be much more
convenient. Most new eprom programmers are usb so it's not a problem, as
long as they offer good long term support.

I've had one of these for years
http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4282,
I've not tried using it on a Windows 10 machine with the more stringent
driver signing restrictions (I've not been using any eproms for a
while). They produced signed drivers for vista & 7 though. I bought it
because my previous wellon programmer didn't have 64 bit drivers & when
I complained, they told me to buy a new programmer.

The TL886CS seems to get a lot of rave reviews, it's cheap but I don't
know good the support is if you have problems.

Keeping an old machine going is just another way to solve the problem. I
think I might have had some success using the software for the 32 bit
only wellon in a virtual machine, which is another option. But again I
found that too much of a pain at the time.

>   I have several machines running the combination of W98SE and XP: 98 is DOS only for my real time applications, XP because it is accepted by W7 and higher on the network. Several machines run XP only. These are package 3 versions, installed clean from the CD. No further update or whatever. But then I don't visit Internet with these machines, that I'll do with my modern well protected and updated laptop. It worked out fine for years already.
> An example: modern PCs only accept one floppy drive these days. So I Found this older P3 Fujitsu and installed a 1.44 MB, 1.2 MB drive and XP. I now use it to create images of various floppies that I find or are given for this purpose.
>
>
> Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen
>
> www.Baltissen.org
>

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Re: Old programmers (was: CBM-II Character Set and Colour Expansion)

MiaM
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Den Wed, 25 Jul 2018 05:45:29 +0000 skrev "Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)"
<[hidden email]>:

> > Btw not sure what the hardware requirements for Windows 10 are, but
> > I assume that a Pentium III, which is about the fastest that has
> > ISA slots, might be too slow.
>
> Why would one have to run W10? Why not an older Windows that suits
> the machine? I have several machines running the combination of W98SE
> and XP: 98 is DOS only for my real time applications, XP because it
> is accepted by W7 and higher on the network. Several machines run XP
> only. These are package 3 versions, installed clean from the CD. No
> further update or whatever. But then I don't visit Internet with
> these machines, that I'll do with my modern well protected and
> updated laptop. It worked out fine for years already. An example:
> modern PCs only accept one floppy drive these days. So I Found this
> older P3 Fujitsu and installed a 1.44 MB, 1.2 MB drive and XP. I now
> use it to create images of various floppies that I find or are given
> for this purpose.

I too have a bunch of computers doing various tasks. But it seems like
so called "normal" people don't want to have 10-30 computers in their
house doing various tasks, even if they are somewhat into vintage
computers. Strange "normal" people :)

Btw as the support for XP finally ended recently (if you had applied
the "POS ready" registry patch, otherwise it ended a long time ago), it
might be a good idea to have a separate network which only can
communicate with your local machines but not reach the net, and use
that for those older XP machines.

XP and to some extent W2000 and NT is a bit special in that there are
no security patches but they can still kind of mostly run modern
software, which I believe makes them more prone to attacks than most
other operating systems. Even if there are some large exploatable holes
using 16-bit Netscape or Internet Explorer in Windows 3.x, I actually
thing that if you use them and navigate to a malware site they won't
bother produce binaries that works under Win16. The same is probably
true for most other older operating systems, especially the
non-Microsoft ones.



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