MOS/CSG Kicad library

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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Ruud
Hallo Steve,


> .... of going from schematic to pcb?

Schematic to PCB, please.


The promised schematic in Eagle and PNG:
http://www.baltissen.org/temp/DB-hires-sch.zip


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2017-11-28, at 19:38, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hallo Steve,
>
>
>> .... of going from schematic to pcb?
>
> Schematic to PCB, please.

In short: you export the netlist from eeschema and then import it into pcbnew. There is no direct connection/annotations between the two components as in EAGLE.

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RE: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hallo Patryk,


> In short: you export the netlist from eeschema and then import it into pcbnew. There is no direct connection/annotations between the two components as in EAGLE.

Aha, that "simple". If it has been documented then I have missed or misinterpreted it being more or less biased by Eagle. Thank you!


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org





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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2017-11-29, at 07:16, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In short: you export the netlist from eeschema and then import it into pcbnew. There is no direct connection/annotations between the two components as in EAGLE.
>
> Aha, that "simple". If it has been documented then I have missed or misinterpreted it being more or less biased by Eagle.

:-) Yes it may be hard to fathom it out after being spoiled by EAGLE's back and forward annotations, and especially when having a good use cases for those. Still, I can imagine living with this. Even the need to assign "footprints" to "components" as a separate subprocess isn't that bad although I am heavily used to the one step "fire'n forget" from EAGLE. Yes, we are biased.

One more thing. As someone who walks similar path as you I can probably advise: don't try to look for ways to do things only with your mouse (icons, menus, ...) that's frustrating in KiCAD (yeah... bias..). Look for the keystrokes you need to learn and learn them thoroughly. This makes a big difference and once you use them, your efficiency soars.


--
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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

MiaM
Captain Obvious sends his regards and points out that it's possible to
change KiCad as it is open source :)

I'm sure that noone would object to adding improvements ;)

(Yes, I know that stuff like a better connection between PCB and layout
e.t.c. would probably require major changes, but still...)

--
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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Steve Gray
In reply to this post by silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
I will second the keystrokes statement. Learn the shortcut keys and Kicad will be so much easier.

M=Move
C=Copy
E=Edit
R=Rotate
W=Wire / END=done
ENTER=Place Component/label etc

These will get you going.

Steve



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library


> On 2017-11-29, at 07:16, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In short: you export the netlist from eeschema and then import it into pcbnew. There is no direct connection/annotations between the two components as in EAGLE.
>
> Aha, that "simple". If it has been documented then I have missed or misinterpreted it being more or less biased by Eagle.

:-) Yes it may be hard to fathom it out after being spoiled by EAGLE's back and forward annotations, and especially when having a good use cases for those. Still, I can imagine living with this. Even the need to assign "footprints" to "components" as a separate subprocess isn't that bad although I am heavily used to the one step "fire'n forget" from EAGLE. Yes, we are biased.

One more thing. As someone who walks similar path as you I can probably advise: don't try to look for ways to do things only with your mouse (icons, menus, ...) that's frustrating in KiCAD (yeah... bias..). Look for the keystrokes you need to learn and learn them thoroughly. This makes a big difference and once you use them, your efficiency soars.


--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/



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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

bwack
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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Steve Gray
In reply to this post by Steve Gray
If anyone is interested... the latest beta versions of Kicad now have an Eagle import function. I've successfully imported a couple Eagle projects and also tried a couple that failed, so your milage may vary.

Steve


From: Steve Gray <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

I will second the keystrokes statement. Learn the shortcut keys and Kicad will be so much easier.

M=Move
C=Copy
E=Edit
R=Rotate
W=Wire / END=done
ENTER=Place Component/label etc

These will get you going.

Steve



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library


> On 2017-11-29, at 07:16, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In short: you export the netlist from eeschema and then import it into pcbnew. There is no direct connection/annotations between the two components as in EAGLE.
>
> Aha, that "simple". If it has been documented then I have missed or misinterpreted it being more or less biased by Eagle.

:-) Yes it may be hard to fathom it out after being spoiled by EAGLE's back and forward annotations, and especially when having a good use cases for those. Still, I can imagine living with this. Even the need to assign "footprints" to "components" as a separate subprocess isn't that bad although I am heavily used to the one step "fire'n forget" from EAGLE. Yes, we are biased.

One more thing. As someone who walks similar path as you I can probably advise: don't try to look for ways to do things only with your mouse (icons, menus, ...) that's frustrating in KiCAD (yeah... bias..). Look for the keystrokes you need to learn and learn them thoroughly. This makes a big difference and once you use them, your efficiency soars.


--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/



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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2018-02-10, at 02:27, Steve Gray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If anyone is interested... the latest beta versions of Kicad now have an Eagle import function.

I think it's been there for quite some time but never really worked. So maybe something's changed in that area and it now at least partially works. Shall have a look, thanks.

P. S. In your case which EAGLE version created the projects that imported correctly?
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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Steve Gray
In reply to this post by Ruud
Hi Ruud,

Just to let you know I just tried importing the Eagle schematic into Kicad but I got an error at "line 1" and nothing appeared.
Have you made any changes since you last worked on the file below? I can try again. If not it's ok, because I will just continue transcribing the schematic using the PNG... it's coming along ok.

Cheers,
Steve



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: Steve Gray <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Hallo Steve,


> .... of going from schematic to pcb?

Schematic to PCB, please.


The promised schematic in Eagle and PNG:
http://www.baltissen.org/temp/DB-hires-sch.zip


--
 
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org








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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Jim Brain
On 3/11/2018 4:46 PM, Steve Gray wrote:
Hi Ruud,

Just to let you know I just tried importing the Eagle schematic into Kicad but I got an error at "line 1" and nothing appeared.
Have you made any changes since you last worked on the file below? I can try again. If not it's ok, because I will just continue transcribing the schematic using the PNG... it's coming along ok.
If it helps, I put my commodore.lbr (which I copied at one point from Ruud's original and then have modified) up on github:

https://github.com/go4retro/EAGLE_lbr

I believe the changes I made:
  • re-arranging signals so inputs and such on CPUs are on left, outputs on right
  • renaming some so they are ! for negative logic as opposed to / names
  • creating various cart port specifics

I do, though, need to mod the 6509 footprint, for obvious reasons.

Jim
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RE: MOS/CSG Kicad library

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
In reply to this post by Steve Gray
Hallo Steve,


> Have you made any changes since you last worked on the file below?

AFAIK, no.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org



De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te
nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit
e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken.
Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige
overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij
overgebrachte virussen.

APG Groep N.V. is gevestigd te Heerlen en is ingeschreven in het
handelsregister van de Kamer van Koophandel Limburg onder nummer 14099617


The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged.
It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient.
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return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its
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Re: MOS/CSG Kicad library

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
As I got a few days of lower workload, I got determined to eventually start and finish a small project in Kicad all the way, without touching EAGLE. I got the latest "nightly" and started pushing myself through it another time. I got around many things and habits already but I still have a question: is there really no normal[*] way of getting "proper" vector font (with proper, slashed zero) in pcbnew? It would be good to have it in eeschema too, but there it is not so important.

* - as opposed to using some workarounds of graphics conversion
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For those struggling with migration to KiCAD

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
Executive summary, AKA TL;DR - if I was eventually able to do it with some, acceptable level of success after decades of using EAGLE - anyone can do it :-)

The full story - I lost count which time it was that I tried, and all previous ones failed. This time I eventually succeeded. I both started and finished a project without touching EAGLE. What I can list as key factors, which you may want to have in mind on your next approach ;-) is the following:

- take a really small but at the same time a non-trivial project.
- something that you would do in EAGLE in not more than a few hours, but
- something that requires all elements of a bigger design, just in small quantities.
- ground/power planes, vias, components with exchangeable gates/pins, ...
- give it more than part of your weekend, something like 5-10 times more than in EAGLE
- use the "unstable" aka "nightly" builds, don't even touch the old "stable"
- learn all main single-key keyboard shortcuts (they are actually surprisingly intuitive)
- use only the "modern (accelerated) toolset". Forget the rest.
- have forum.kicad.info open all the time ;-)

I think that my previous failures can be attributed to me not observing all of the above. I usually had something like full Sat and half Sun to use and tried to do things that would require about a day in EAGLE. I tried "stable" builds, and use mouse rather than keyboard shortcuts.

The good:

- I was able to crash the last "unstable" build only once during three days of work! It is still not in EAGLE's league (one crash in almost three decades, after I manually modified its files in a wrong way) but it is an enormous improvement over the "stable" (V4 I think) one, which kept crashing on me every couple of minutes / mouse clicks. I don't know how the builds for other platforms behave(d) but the OSX version was _that_ bad in terms of stability. This (literally) show-stopping problem seems to be under control now.

- The "modern" / "accelerated" "toolset" is usable at last. The "legacy toolset" IMHO never was. Again YMMV, especially on other platforms - maybe it was usable on Windows for example, don't know. In any case the "modern", which I understand (correct me if I am wrong) some of my countrymen at CERN introduced to KiCAD not so long ago, is - I dare saying - good enough to be fully usable, with some non-critical limitations (opacity settings for example).

- There is (at last?) a way to bind the schematics and the layout with something more comfortable than: eeschema -> export netlist -> generate netlist -> save -> overwrite existing -> yes, I am sure -> pcbnew -> import netlist -> read current netlist -> yes, I am sure -> why didn't the footprint actually change(?!), damn it! Rinse and repeat for every small changeset you might have introduced. The "update pcb from schematics" option seems to work acceptably well and dampens the urge to scream every time I need to adapt the pins' connections on the schematics in order to get cleaner routing. I believe I should be able to live with this "meet in the middle" type of approach, between what's been available in EAGLE for decades and what was the only way in KiCAD before. I even think it might have some advantages over EAGLE's way, in the sense that once your files in EAGLE get out of sync (for any reason), the process of getting them back on one track is quite painful today and was almost impossible in preV5 versions, which used binary files to store your creations.

- Some workflows, especially in eeschema, become quickly faster than in EAGLE: wiring, buses, bus entries and more. Prerequisite (again) is remembering the most important keystrokes.

- Seems I wasn't the only one ranting about unconnected, hidden power pins that don't trigger any ERC errors (sic!) and somebody, eventually seem to have corrected it, at least in such way (didn't check thoroughly but my components got power connected automatically) that "hidden pins" are not "hidden" by default. Actually I need to check it more thoroughly, maybe I am wrong here on why this worked this time.

- I surprisingly quickly got used to the lack of "devices", aka separation of "symbol" and "footprint". I thought it was wrong when compared to EAGLE's way but now I think that EAGLE's way is inferior, less flexible and more difficult to both grasp and maintain over time. If you have similar concerns as I had - they will most probably be quickly gone and you'll be glad seeing them go.


The bad:

- V5 (rc - I had) feels in terms of trustworthiness still somewhere less than EAGLE V2 for DOS ;-) There is still a lot of places where I can't just simply trust it to do the correct thing. Either due to confusing / inconsistent naming, or a confusing, inconsistent, unintuitive workflow, or any other factor like "libraries hell" (see below). All in all, I feel like I need to be much more suspicious and double-verify many more things, than I am used to. It might be at least partially due to my habits and proficiency in using EAGLE but I have the feeling that I need to baby-sit more things than I needed when I was learning "the other" software.

- True, there are inconsistencies in EAGLE too but KiCAD looks like there is a huge pile of legacy stuff behind it and there is no dictator who would tell everyone to just forget the legacy and order the devs to bring consistency between various subprograms of the suite. Some things work differently in eeschema, in pcbnew, in footprint editor, in symbol editor, etc., etc. Yes, you learn those things eventually but you shouldn't have to, IMO. I tend to blame it at least in sizeable part on "democratic" process of Free Software development.

- General lack of polish in most areas (although much better than earlier versions). A trivial example: why tooltips of the GUI buttons don't show the equivalent keyboard shortcut and force me to open the shortcut list window instead? But there is many, many more in every corner and often need to be worked around one way or another.

- Lack of non-rectangular selections. You don't know how valuable it is until you lose it.

- Libraries. Honestly - it's a mess. Double-check all the components you import from official libraries. Both the symbols and the footprints. You can get anything but correct stuff if you are not conscientious verifying what you pull-in to your design. For example: I spent quite a portion of a day trying to route a trace to a pad, which I had connected in the schematic. I was able to route the trace all the way until the pad and that was it. The "airwire" was there but pcbnew didn't allow me to make the final connection. Just - no and that's it! I tried to blame various things, turning off (and on and off) DRC checks, clearances, widths, and whatnot... I even opened the footprint in the editor and... didn't find a thing there either. It was until I opened its file in the text editor (sic!) and found (by noticing suspiciously similar lines) that _under_ the pad I tried to connect to, there was another, invisible to me one. Yes, there were two pads, one on top of another, and the presence of the (hidden beneath) other one was preventing me from making the final connection! But you can get lots of other "interesting" things too. Inconsistent drills, misaligned pads, bad references, you name it. Put on top of it a number of various methods of accessing the libraries in various subprograms and lack of central place of managing your lib-set and you'll know what I mean by "mess".


The ugly:

- the damned, hardcoded, non-angular font with O in place of 0 (no slashed zero!)
- the inability to "flow" copper around your text (you end up with an ugly, rectangular hole)


Good luck! All in all - I believe it's worth it, especially given current circumstances around EAGLE.

--
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Re: For those struggling with migration to KiCAD

MiaM
Den Sat, 24 Mar 2018 18:14:49 +0100 skrev [hidden email]:
> Executive summary, AKA TL;DR - if I was eventually able to do it with
> some, acceptable level of success after decades of using EAGLE -
> anyone can do it :-)

Thanks for sharing your experience!
As I've just started to use KiCad I'll add my experiences:

> The full story - I lost count which time it was that I tried, and all
> previous ones failed. This time I eventually succeeded. I both
> started and finished a project without touching EAGLE. What I can
> list as key factors, which you may want to have in mind on your next
> approach ;-) is the following:
>
> - take a really small but at the same time a non-trivial project.
> - something that you would do in EAGLE in not more than a few hours,
> but
> - something that requires all elements of a bigger design, just in
> small quantities.
> - ground/power planes, vias, components with exchangeable
> gates/pins, ...

... or do something really small just to get a feel on how it works.
Then when you do something bigger you can flip to the smaller project
to try out the stuff you haven't already done in the smaller project.

> - give it more than part of your weekend, something like 5-10 times
> more than in EAGLE
> - use the "unstable" aka "nightly" builds, don't even touch the old
> "stable"

I've only tested the stable 4.02 version included in Ubuntu 16.04 LTS.

> - learn all main single-key keyboard shortcuts (they are actually
> surprisingly intuitive)

My impression is that the keyboard shortcuts seems to clash.

> - use only the "modern (accelerated) toolset". Forget the rest.

I use the one thats default, whichever that is. My only problem is that
it's rather graphics intensive when you move/place stuff. It's fine if
you think my setup is crazy, but I actually run stuff on my Linux box
via VNC onto a Windows desktop box. When using VNC moving stuff is
really slow. You learn to place the mouse pointer as close as possible
to the correct position and then use the keyboard to actually select a
new component or whatever you are going to do.

> - have forum.kicad.info open all the time ;-)

I dug up a few tutorials on the net, used mostly parts of one of them,
and searched the net for various stuff that I struggled with while
learning.

> - I was able to crash the last "unstable" build only once during
> three days of work! It is still not in EAGLE's league (one crash in
> almost three decades, after I manually modified its files in a wrong
> way) but it is an enormous improvement over the "stable" (V4 I think)
> one, which kept crashing on me every couple of minutes / mouse
> clicks. I don't know how the builds for other platforms behave(d) but
> the OSX version was _that_ bad in terms of stability. This
> (literally) show-stopping problem seems to be under control now.

I haven't been able to crash KiCad at all. But that is an older version.

> - True, there are inconsistencies in EAGLE too but KiCAD looks like
> there is a huge pile of legacy stuff behind it and there is no
> dictator who would tell everyone to just forget the legacy and order
> the devs to bring consistency between various subprograms of the
> suite. Some things work differently in eeschema, in pcbnew, in
> footprint editor, in symbol editor, etc., etc. Yes, you learn those
> things eventually but you shouldn't have to, IMO. I tend to blame it
> at least in sizeable part on "democratic" process of Free Software
> development.

Maybe this is something that will be sorted out eventually? My
impression is that there isn't that much difference between eeschema
and pcbnew in 4.0.2.
 
> - General lack of polish in most areas (although much better than
> earlier versions). A trivial example: why tooltips of the GUI buttons
> don't show the equivalent keyboard shortcut and force me to open the
> shortcut list window instead? But there is many, many more in every
> corner and often need to be worked around one way or another.

This is unfortunately generally all too common on software that can run
in Linux :(

> - Libraries. Honestly - it's a mess.

In the old 4.0.2 version there is also a real lack of basic components.
I'm not expecting 6509 to be there, but it's really bad that for
example 556 is missing. (It's apparently added later as I found a newer
version of the libraries and used the 556 from those newer libraries).

> - the damned, hardcoded, non-angular font with O in place of 0 (no
> slashed zero!)
> - the inability to "flow" copper around your text (you end up with an
> ugly, rectangular hole)
>
>
> Good luck! All in all - I believe it's worth it, especially given
> current circumstances around EAGLE.

I suspect Eagles change in licensing will do good for KiCad
developement.



--
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(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
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Re: For those struggling with migration to KiCAD

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2018-03-24, at 23:39, Mia Magnusson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The full story - I lost count which time it was that I tried, and all
>> previous ones failed. This time I eventually succeeded. I both
>> started and finished a project without touching EAGLE. What I can
>> list as key factors, which you may want to have in mind on your next
>> approach ;-) is the following:
>>
>> - take a really small but at the same time a non-trivial project.
>> - something that you would do in EAGLE in not more than a few hours,
>> but
>> - something that requires all elements of a bigger design, just in
>> small quantities.
>> - ground/power planes, vias, components with exchangeable
>> gates/pins, ...
>
> ... or do something really small just to get a feel on how it works.
> Then when you do something bigger you can flip to the smaller project
> to try out the stuff you haven't already done in the smaller project.

This type of approach didn't work for me. It was like the "Hello, world\n" type of project always worked in a way. So, next time I wanted to take on something I actually needed to be done over a weekend. That always ended - as I wrote here before - that Sunday late afternoon no acceptable results where available. At that moment redoing the thing from scratch in EAGLE until late night seemed like the only choice available to make sure the thing is done. Otherwise it would have to wait an undetermined period of time for another available weekend.

With the approach I took this time, I feel relatively confident that I ironed out (or worked around) most of the problems that could otherwise stop or substantially slow me down the next time.

>> - use only the "modern (accelerated) toolset". Forget the rest.
>
> I use the one thats default, whichever that is. My only problem is that
> it's rather graphics intensive when you move/place stuff. It's fine if
> you think my setup is crazy, but I actually run stuff on my Linux box
> via VNC onto a Windows desktop box. When using VNC moving stuff is
> really slow. You learn to place the mouse pointer as close as possible
> to the correct position and then use the keyboard to actually select a
> new component or whatever you are going to do.

I would say that yours is hardly a typical, productive setup. Actually I wouldn't try to work that way with anything CAD related. In such setup, the main advantages of the "modern toolset" (responsiveness, interactive routing, ..) are not really available anyway.

>> - have forum.kicad.info open all the time ;-)
>
> I dug up a few tutorials on the net, used mostly parts of one of them,
> and searched the net for various stuff that I struggled with while
> learning.

I was very positively surprised with how efficiently you can get answers on that forum. First you search through and if no answer is found, you ask a reasonably clear question. The answers came back within minutes back into my browser window. Just like the "good old" IRC channel, only with supposedly very long list of live participants being there all the time.

>> - True, there are inconsistencies in EAGLE too but KiCAD looks like
>> there is a huge pile of legacy stuff behind it and there is no
>> dictator who would tell everyone to just forget the legacy and order
>> the devs to bring consistency between various subprograms of the
>> suite. Some things work differently in eeschema, in pcbnew, in
>> footprint editor, in symbol editor, etc., etc. Yes, you learn those
>> things eventually but you shouldn't have to, IMO. I tend to blame it
>> at least in sizeable part on "democratic" process of Free Software
>> development.
>
> Maybe this is something that will be sorted out eventually?

Maybe. IMHO it requires someone like Linus who has the ultimate last word and who says upfront things like "don't waste time doing this or that" while having his priorities well aligned.


One thing I forgot in my original post - I tested the EAGLE import support. I admit it works much better than before. But (there is always one) still:

- don't expect that what you imported will be complete, error-free and just work. It may happen if the project you imported is a very simple one (which implies it could easily be redone anyway) but complex ones probably won't work OOB, even if they look all fine at first glance.

- once you start correcting those little things, which need to be corrected on the complex project, it may soon turn into the well-known https://xkcd.com/1739/ situation and eventually be easier to redo the thing in KiCAD anyway. Especially if the project is still evolving and you still want to work further on it, as opposed to a "once finished for good" type of a project. For the latter it would be enough to keep your final output GERBERs instead of trying to import it into a CAD system anyway.

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SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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Re: For those struggling with migration to KiCAD

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl

> On 2018-03-25, at 13:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>> - True, there are inconsistencies in EAGLE too but KiCAD looks like
>>> there is a huge pile of legacy stuff behind it and there is no
>>> dictator who would tell everyone to just forget the legacy and order
>>> the devs to bring consistency between various subprograms of the
>>> suite. Some things work differently in eeschema, in pcbnew, in
>>> footprint editor, in symbol editor, etc., etc. Yes, you learn those
>>> things eventually but you shouldn't have to, IMO. I tend to blame it
>>> at least in sizeable part on "democratic" process of Free Software
>>> development.
>>
>> Maybe this is something that will be sorted out eventually?
>
> Maybe. IMHO it requires someone like Linus who has the ultimate last word and who says upfront things like "don't waste time doing this or that" while having his priorities well aligned.

It reminded me. Right now it looks more like:

https://xkcd.com/1172/

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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