Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
42 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
Hi.  Yeah, I figured 8k is good for now.  Thinking ahead though, is it better to add a second 2764 socket or just move up to higher capacity EEPROMS on a single socket?  At what point does the PCB design have to incorporate banking functionality?  Trying to keep it simple for now; however, is it wise to add a second socket?  Thanks!
smf
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

smf
On 08/12/2016 15:29, MindFlareRetro wrote:

> At what point does the PCB design have to incorporate
> banking functionality?

8k if you're just doing roml, 16k if you do roml & romh

http://blog.worldofjani.com/?p=879#prettyPhoto

If you want something flexible then two sockets and two jumpers for
exrom & game will allow you to do run anything that doesn't need banking.


       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

RE: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
This post was updated on .
Thanks very much smf.  Yes, I like the XROM and GAME "flexible" option with jumpers.  I
think that's the way to go.  Jim?    :D

Regards,
Mark
 

On 08/12/2016, smf wrote:

8k if you're just doing roml, 16k if you do roml & romh

http://blog.worldofjani.com/?p=879#prettyPhoto

If you want something flexible then two sockets and two jumpers for
exrom & game will allow you to do run anything that doesn't need banking.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 12/8/2016 3:10 PM, MindFlareRetro wrote:

Thanks very much smf.  Yes, I like the XROM and GAME "flexible" option.  I think that's the way to go.  Jim?  :D

So, 2 (E)EPROMs and 2 jumpers, no banking?

Jim
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
Yes, sir.  That sounds like a good plan, and I think many C64 DIYers will find it quite valuable.  Thanks very much Jim.  Your selfless contributions are greatly appreciated.  You're the best!

Regards,
Mark
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 12/8/2016 6:37 PM, MindFlareRetro wrote:
> Yes, sir.  That sounds like a good plan, and I think many C64 DIYers will
> find it quite valuable.  Thanks very much Jim.  Your selfless contributions
> are greatly appreciated.  You're the best!
OK, whipping one up now.

Questions for others:

To make the design as flexible as possible, without making it too
complex, what would be the simplest way to add the banking?

I see this:

http://www.puzzud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/pzd-c64-md2-1.png

But, it requires 2 ICs, and one is hardly used.  I see a few other options:

https://www.64hdd.com/projects/c64-proj3.html

and I am wondering if I can put some nice optional banking on the unit
with maybe just 1 IC.

Thoughts/ideas?

Jim

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
Not to step on any toes, but how are eBay sellers like Coprolite Computer By-Products pulling this off with their "Coprolite Mega-16 Cartridge Commodore 64 128 w/27C801 Eprom For 64 16k programs" ... https://goo.gl/MojkUi.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 12/8/2016 7:24 PM, MindFlareRetro wrote:
> Not to step on any toes, but how are eBay sellers like Coprolite Computer
> By-Products pulling this off with their "Coprolite Mega-16 Cartridge
> Commodore 64 128 w/27C801 Eprom For 64 16k programs" ...
> https://goo.gl/MojkUi.
>
> <http://cbm-hackers.2304266.n4.nabble.com/file/n4662039/CoproliteMega16.jpg>
Not sure the question, but the design is simple:

the rotary switch picks 4 bits of the address, and the dip switches pick
another 2.

The 2 diodes, and one of the little resistors create a wired 'OR' gate
to select the ROM when eitehr ROML or ROMH are low.  The rest of the
switches tie the 6 address lines high when the switches are not pulling
them low.

Is this the design you'd prefer, one with switches for banking, and 16kB
(it makes it a bit harder to use for 8kB images because you have to buy
a 16kB EPROM , and you really need 1 more switch, on the GAME line,
since that line should be high for 8kB ROMs.

Jim

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
This post was updated on .
Hi Jim,

I was just throwing that out there as a 1-chip banked example in response to your open question to all.  I didn't think my original question would snowball like this — fun and informative, but now I feel like I'm imposing.

Anyway, for me the "2 (E)EPROMs and 2 jumpers, no banking" option is great for now unless anyone else wants to have a banking version.

Thanks Jim.

Mark
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Clockmeister
Alphaworks http://c64zone.alphaworks.com.au/ also did a 16k version with
a simple bank switch solution.
I still have one somewhere. It doesn't look like they still sell it, but
might be worth an email.

Pretty cheap from memory.




On 9/12/2016 12:11 PM, MindFlareRetro wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> I was just throwing that example out there as a 1-chip banked example in
> response to your open question to all.  I didn't think my original question
> would snowball like this — fun and informative, but now I feel like I'm
> imposing.
>
> Anyway, for me the "2 (E)EPROMs and 2 jumpers, no banking" option is great
> for now unless anyone else wants to have a banking version.
>
> Thanks Jim.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://cbm-hackers.2304266.n4.nabble.com/Eagle-CAD-design-and-fabrication-of-C64-Plus4-cartridges-tp4656273p4662042.html
> Sent from the cbm-hackers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>         Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
>


       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 12/8/2016 11:02 PM, Clockmeister wrote:
> Alphaworks http://c64zone.alphaworks.com.au/ also did a 16k version
> with a simple bank switch solution.
> I still have one somewhere. It doesn't look like they still sell it,
> but might be worth an email.
Feel free to email them (Kaspersky says that URL has a virus, so I
didn't try to work around it).  I whipped up a 15 minute untested
design.  Will send to Mark.  I added the 3 high address lines on pads so
someone can bank switch if they want.

Designing a soft-banking solution requires at least 2 ICs (a latch to
hold the bank and something to combine IO1, R/W, and Phi2), should be 3
(the C128 really needs the dual FF clock fixer circuit that Skoe and
Martin Hoffmann-Vetter designed), and that started to sound like work...

So, it's 2 2764-512 footprints, 3 resistors (for the upper address
lines), 2 caps, and 2 jumpers.  Seems pretty simple.

Jim


       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
smf
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

smf
On 09/12/2016 07:16, Jim Brain wrote:
> Designing a soft-banking solution requires at least 2 ICs (a latch to
> hold the bank and something to combine IO1, R/W, and Phi2), should be
> 3 (the C128 really needs the dual FF clock fixer circuit that Skoe and
> Martin Hoffmann-Vetter designed), and that started to sound like work...

Could you do bank switching with a single registered pal/gal?  I can't
find anything about the dual FF clock fixer.

Would your design also allow you to make a c128 native cartridge?

http://blog.worldofjani.com/?p=1600

The difference seems to be 16k instead of 8k for ROML/ROMH and no
game/exrom jumper.


       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Michał Pleban
In reply to this post by Jim Brain
Hello!

Jim Brain wrote:

> (the C128 really needs the dual FF clock fixer circuit that Skoe and
> Martin Hoffmann-Vetter designed)

Is there any info on that circuit online?

Regards,
Michau.

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
In reply to this post by smf
On 12/9/2016 6:22 AM, smf wrote:
> On 09/12/2016 07:16, Jim Brain wrote:
>> Designing a soft-banking solution requires at least 2 ICs (a latch to
>> hold the bank and something to combine IO1, R/W, and Phi2), should be
>> 3 (the C128 really needs the dual FF clock fixer circuit that Skoe
>> and Martin Hoffmann-Vetter designed), and that started to sound like
>> work...
>
> Could you do bank switching with a single registered pal/gal?
Yes, but that requires a programmer, etc., and that increases the
complexity quite a bit.
> I can't find anything about the dual FF clock fixer.
It's on the EasyFlash  Essentially, it delays the clock start by 1/2
dotclock period and shortens it.  From Martin's response to me:

DotCLK  _| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_
                 _______________
Phi2 =OE_______|               |_________
                   _______
Phi2'   _________|       |_______________
                       _______
Phi2"=WE_____________|       |___________


Possibly Martin will respond on list with more detail.  Since he
responded to me personally, I'd prefer he post to the list.
>
> Would your design also allow you to make a c128 native cartridge?
>
> http://blog.worldofjani.com/?p=1600
>
> The difference seems to be 16k instead of 8k for ROML/ROMH and no
> game/exrom jumper.
It would require a jumper wire from A13 on the ROMs to A13 on the cart
connector, and if Mark wants, I can quickly add that :-)



       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
Hi Jim,

I like smf's idea of C128 compatibility, so .... if it's not too much trouble, can we add that feature, please.

Thanks,
Mark
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 12/9/2016 1:11 PM, MindFlareRetro wrote:
Hi Jim,

I like smf's idea of C128 compatibility, so .... if it's not too much
trouble, can we add that feature, please.

Thanks,
Mark



--
View this message in context: http://cbm-hackers.2304266.n4.nabble.com/Eagle-CAD-design-and-fabrication-of-C64-Plus4-cartridges-tp4656273p4662048.html
Sent from the cbm-hackers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list

www.go4retro.com.com/downloads/Simple64Cart

Note:  untested.  There's not much on the board, but still. Buy a few and test before getting too far ahead of yourself.


Jim


-- 
Jim Brain
[hidden email] 
www.jbrain.com
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

MindFlareRetro
This post was updated on .
Did a quick render of the boards (with Jim's final tweaks).  They look great...



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

bwack
In reply to this post by Jim Brain
Hi Jim and Mark. I became one of the testers. I accepted to receive and make a video about it. I didn't know about this discussion at the time, and that it was a quick mash-up, so this turned more into a pcb 1.0 review than an easy of use review.

I've learned that the cartridge sets #EXROM or #GAME, and in some cases both (16k). Then, why is there a double throw jumper for #EXROM and #GAME? I had to bodge a link to tie the signals to ground. A jumper would just connect one of them to ground. For a 2764 rom that would have been ok I think, but not for 27C128 used for 16k game roms. Wizard of Wor cart (16k) is the passion for this project.

I dumped the .crt file using cartconv.exe, using -t bin option and burned the 16k with minipro. No problems there. So now the A13 on the 27C128 banks the two 8k ROM areas.

One chipselect/outputenable, two chipselect signals:
Now the second thing I gather is that the PLA drives #CS and or #OE with #ROML or #ROMH. Those signals are dependent on #EXROM and #GAME. Because the overview doc I got from Mindflare says : "Single EPROM support - 2764 or 27C64 (1 x 8k bank) / 27128 or 27C128 (2 x 8k banks)", I decided to buy an 27C128. Here is the problem: a double throw jumper has no place on selecting #ROML and #ROMH for #OE. It's either #ROML or both, right? The second problem: I have a single chip, but two chipselect/output enable drivers #ROMH and #ROML. Someone in the thread suggested two diodes and a resistor. This was not everything needed to make it work. The #ROML was also connected to A13, the MSB of 27c128's address bus.

Result:
It turned into a bodge job where non of the components (diodes and resistors and links) has a place to go on the board other than into the air and then back again. Just saying. Anyway not criticising here. I know (now) that it was a 15min job. I did get Wizard of Wor to run today. Yay !

Hans / Bwack
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

Jim Brain
On 6/3/2017 11:15 AM, bwack wrote:
> Hi Jim and Mark. I became one of the testers. I accepted to receive and make
> a video about it. I didn't know about this discussion at the time, and that
> it was a quick mash-up, so this turned more into a pcb 1.0 review than an
> easy of use review.
>
> I've learned that the cartridge sets #EXROM or #GAME, and in some cases both
> (16k). Then, why is there a double throw jumper for #EXROM and #GAME?
I believe you're trying to use the single ROM cart design for a 16kB
cart.  I don't think that will work, or at least I never designed it to
do so.  The design parms for the single EPROM cart was to support
putting an 8kB ROM at either ROML or ROMHI had

> One chipselect/outputenable, two chipselect signals:
> Now the second thing I gather is that the PLA drives #CS and or #OE with
> #ROML or #ROMH. Those signals are dependent on #EXROM and #GAME. Because the
> overview doc I got from Mindflare says : "Single EPROM support - 2764 or
> 27C64 (1 x 8k bank) / 27128 or 27C128 (2 x 8k banks)", I decided to buy an
> 27C128. Here is the problem: a double throw jumper has no place on selecting
> #ROML and #ROMH for #OE. It's either #ROML or both, right? The second
> problem: I have a single chip, but two chipselect/output enable drivers
> #ROMH and #ROML. Someone in the thread suggested two diodes and a resistor.
> This was not everything needed to make it work. The #ROML was also connected
> to A13, the MSB of 27c128's address bus.
I don't know.  as far as I can tell from the schematic, that cannot happen.

Jim

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Eagle CAD design and fabrication of C64 & Plus4 cartridges

bwack

>> Hi Jim and Mark. I became one of the testers. I accepted to receive
>> and make
>> a video about it. I didn't know about this discussion at the time,
>> and that
>> it was a quick mash-up, so this turned more into a pcb 1.0 review
>> than an
>> easy of use review.
>>
>> I've learned that the cartridge sets #EXROM or #GAME, and in some
>> cases both
>> (16k). Then, why is there a double throw jumper for #EXROM and #GAME?
> I believe you're trying to use the single ROM cart design for a 16kB
> cart.  I don't think that will work, or at least I never designed it
> to do so.  The design parms for the single EPROM cart was to support
> putting an 8kB ROM at either ROML or ROMHI had
That makes sense. I think Mark should reflect this in his overview
document, because I was led to believe otherwise.
I don't intend to do any more work on this, but I'd like to let you know
that I've got the Wizard of Wor 16kb cart working with the diode hack
and roml connected to A13 with the Simple64Cart. A footprint for those
extra diodes, resistors and tracks is useful. The cart does have a lot
of free area also.

Another question, what was the A13 jumper for ?

I made a video explaining things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESA1ahmcmZY

Hans / Bwack

       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list
123
Loading...