Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

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Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Raj Wurttemberg
Hi Guys - I just had another 1902 monitor pop (big cap near the flyback
transformer) and I'm getting worried that my CRTs are reaching their end of
life.  Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
a C64 to s-video or even better, HDMI? I can troubleshoot electronics, but I
never learned to design circuits. I did find one schematic on the internet
that involves removing some components from the C64 and putting in an
s-video connector. I'm fine with doing that but I wanted to check with you
all first before starting that process.

Thanks,
/Raj



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RE: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hallo Raj,


>  Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
> a C64 to s-video or even better, HDMI?

My 40 inch TV has composite video input and it is just one year old. Quite weird to play Paradroid on it :) Some years ago I bought a second hand 16 inch TV with SCART, A/V and VGA input because my Philips CM8233 (IIRC) did POOF as well. Never regretted that buy.

So before starting tinkering, you should think about this option as well.


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de
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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged.
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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg

> On 2018-07-17, at 05:08, Raj Wurttemberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys - I just had another 1902 monitor pop (big cap near the flyback
> transformer) and I'm getting worried that my CRTs are reaching their end of
> life.  Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
> a C64 to s-video

If we put the deviations from the actual norms aside, then S-Video is practically available OOB on every C64 with 8pin DIN output.

> or even better, HDMI?

I started some work on "legalising" the video signal (so that it could no longer be a hit'n miss game when connecting it to more modern displays/converters) as well as DVI output, but with DolphinDOS 4 currently taking all of my highly scarce hobby-time, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for me to finish it if I was you...

> I can troubleshoot electronics, but I
> never learned to design circuits. I did find one schematic on the internet
> that involves removing some components from the C64 and putting in an
> s-video connector. I'm fine with doing that but I wanted to check with you
> all first before starting that process.

Depends on what you mean with "some components" if you're talking about removing the RF modulator then - depending on the model of the modulator - you may or may not get improved quality of the signal coming out of the C-64 but in general this doesn't change much in terms of signal compatibility. It changes even less if you talk about exchanging the socket only.

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Andreas Böhm
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg
Hi Raj,

I encountered the same problem. I simply bought a converter named "StarTech.com Composite und S-Video/VGA Video Converter" such as this one available here:

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Composite-S-Video-Video-Converter/dp/B0067D8O1G

Works fine with my PAL C64s.

regards,
Andreas

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> Raj Wurttemberg <[hidden email]> hat am 17. Juli 2018 um 05:08 geschrieben:
>
>
> Hi Guys - I just had another 1902 monitor pop (big cap near the flyback
> transformer) and I'm getting worried that my CRTs are reaching their end of
> life.  Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
> a C64 to s-video or even better, HDMI? I can troubleshoot electronics, but I
> never learned to design circuits. I did find one schematic on the internet
> that involves removing some components from the C64 and putting in an
> s-video connector. I'm fine with doing that but I wanted to check with you
> all first before starting that process.
>
> Thanks,
> /Raj
>
>
>

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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Didier Derny
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

to replace commodore screens  I bought this tv:   Samsung T24E390EW


paid 159 euro from amazon...  (beware appears sometimes on amazon at higer prices [280])


support:
- composite
- composant
- 2 x hdmi
- 1  peritel (scart)
- vga

has a usb connector

till now it works fine with all the machine I've tested   (commodore vic20, c64, plus4, c116 / tandy  coco, mc10 / apple II / thomson mo5 / my PC)



On 17/07/2018 08:12, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
Hallo Raj,


 Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
a C64 to s-video or even better, HDMI?
My 40 inch TV has composite video input and it is just one year old. Quite weird to play Paradroid on it :) Some years ago I bought a second hand 16 inch TV with SCART, A/V and VGA input because my Philips CM8233 (IIRC) did POOF as well. Never regretted that buy.

So before starting tinkering, you should think about this option as well. 


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de 
geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te 
nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit 
e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken. 
Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige 
overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij 
overgebrachte virussen.

APG Groep N.V. is gevestigd te Heerlen en is ingeschreven in het 
handelsregister van de Kamer van Koophandel Limburg onder nummer 14099617


The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. 
It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. 
If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by 
return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its 
contents to any person. We don't accept liability for any errors, omissions, 
delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a 
result of e-mail transmission.

APG Groep N.V. is registered in the trade register of the Chamber 
of Commerce Limburg, The Netherlands, registration number: 14099617



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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl
In reply to this post by Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)

> On 2018-07-17, at 08:12, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So before starting tinkering, you should think about this option as well.

Or if Raj (or anyone for that matter) is interested, I've got a number of 14" broadcast studio LCDs, which are specifically designed to closely emulate analogue CRTs together with their wide-range adaptability to timing deviations. One probably doesn't find many better options for high quality display that perfectly handles unmodified C64 output without adding tons of latency. If interested contact me, I can part with some of those at their fair market value of about €115/unit.


P. S. CRTs also available if anyone's interested.

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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RE: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Raj Wurttemberg
Great information. Thank you All. This is the modification I was looking at:

https://amazingdiy.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/c64-s-video-mod/

How is the video quality on the composite video? I do have a Commodore to SCART cable and SCART to HDMI adaptor, but the video quality is pretty bad (SCART ports are not on US TVs unfortunately).

Thanks,
/Raj



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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

silverdr@wfmh.org.pl


> On 2018-07-17, at 15:35, Raj Wurttemberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Great information. Thank you All. This is the modification I was looking at:
>
> https://amazingdiy.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/c64-s-video-mod/

IMHO this makes sense only if you have the 5pin DIN socket. Otherwise I don't see much added value. The lines you need for S-Video are available on the 8pin socket without the modification.

Replacing the modulator with video amp of your own makes OTOH sense if you have the very poor modulator, which blurs the picture. Some of the very early C64s (this may coincide with 5pin socket) have this kind of modulator. The later variants have mostly improved modulator, replacing which doesn't improve the quality THAT much. Especially the narrow boards. So if you have the blurry modulator, it's best to replace it with an amp board. I have a proven design based on Gerrit supplied information.

> How is the video quality on the composite video?

Depends on the modulator you have installed. From blurry to pretty OK.

> I do have a Commodore to SCART cable and SCART to HDMI adaptor, but the video quality is pretty bad (SCART ports are not on US TVs unfortunately).

This may not be caused by your C64 signal quality at all. That's the "hit'n miss game" I wrote about. The signal C64 generates does not conform to any TV/Video standard. It is surely out of specs in several aspects. Yet - for analogue controlled CRTs - it was "good enough" to make them display things in virtually all cases, not only with CBM branded ones. For a modern, digital device, which expects the incoming signal to be norm-compliant you may get all kinds of distortions or no output at all when you feed such device with C64 output. And unless you get a converter device that is verified and confirmed to work with a C64 and its output, you will never know upfront what you eventually get on the screen, if anything at all.

Solutions in order of _my_ preference, related to the amount of added latency / fidelity to the original look:

- get a quality CRT (like SD-broadcast studio display in acceptable shape)
- get a quality broadcast studio LCD designed to work with SD analogue signals
- get a proven (confirmed to work with C64) converter/upscaler to feed your LCD/Plasma/whatever

Once you have one of the above and it works, only then start work on improving the C64 output quality. Otherwise you may spend lots of effort and still not being able to see acceptable (blue-on-blue) picture...

--
SD! - http://e4aws.silverdr.com/


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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

MiaM
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg
Den Mon, 16 Jul 2018 23:08:14 -0400 skrev "Raj Wurttemberg"
<[hidden email]>:
> Hi Guys - I just had another 1902 monitor pop (big cap near the
> flyback transformer) and I'm getting worried that my CRTs are
> reaching their end of life.  Have any of you done any work on a
> device to convert the output from a C64 to s-video or even better,
> HDMI? I can troubleshoot electronics, but I never learned to design
> circuits. I did find one schematic on the internet that involves
> removing some components from the C64 and putting in an s-video
> connector. I'm fine with doing that but I wanted to check with you
> all first before starting that process.

C64 and C128 already has S-video output, but the name S-video wasn't
invented until later so it goes by other names in documentation written
back in the days.

You need an 8-pin DIN, and it has to be the right kind (there are two
kinds, one where 7 of the pins form a perfect circle except a "pin" is
missing, and one where pin 6 and 7 "hangs down" like they are tired).
Of course use audio out as usual, and signal ground as usual. Luminance
is connected to the luma pin of an S-video connector. Chrominance
is connected to the chroma pin of an S-video connector.

(If you live in Europe you might have a TV with S-video on a Scart
connector. Then you connect luma to the video in pin and chroma to the
RGB color pin that's physically closest to the video in pin. Of course
you also connect the audio signal to the audio in pins).

As you seem to be able to do some work on electronics stuff, I suggest
that you do a full recap of the monitors you want to keep alive, or at
least have a look at the electrolytic capacitors and see if there are
any swollen or leaky (physical fluid) capacitors. If any look bad, at
least replace all that seems to be from the same batch but preferable
replace all.

You might skip the small capacitors that sits in places where a short
circuit would not damage expensive stuff, like perhaps in the signal
path where the signal levels are rather low. But that is imho not worth
the temporary saving, the smaller capacitors are also the cheapest to
buy new.

opt for capacitors with a good reputation and be sure that they are
rated for the heat from nearby power semiconductors and resistors, and
generally the heat where you live.

The only 100% perfect HDMI solution I know of is to emulate the
hardware using for example the Turbo Chameleon or the new replacement
motherboards.

Btw the things that age in CRT monitors seems to be the electrolytic
capacitors and the insulation in the high voltage parts. I'm officially
denying this, but "I've heard" that you can remove metal parts that are
near high voltage parts where the insulation has failed. It might even
require cutting a hole in the case, and it will be rather dangerous and
something you really don't want to use if there is a risk of animals,
childens or uneducated people getting nearby it.

Btw if the high voltage insulation has failed in a monitor you usually
hear a rather loud sparky sound. Don't hook up such monitor to a
computer or anything else you value until you have fixed the insulation.

There is another kind of insulation fail that causes a high pitched
buzzing sound and a smell of ozone. In those cases it might be
sufficent to clean out dirt on the high voltage parts of the monitor.

Don't work on the high voltage parts unless you are sure there are no
voltage charges still in the CRT. The CRT acts like a capacitor and can
hold a dangerous amount of energy. Follow well-known discharge
procedures after first letting the monitor rest for a few days. Never
ever disconnect the ground shield "nest" from the CRT unless you
already have disconnected the high voltage lead an the connector on the
neck of the tube. Always keep one of your hands behind you and work
with the other hand, and always work in an environment with good
insulation (i.e. a dry room with wooden or plastic floor, not concrete
or metal on the floor and not in a wet/humid place).

Beware that on a broken CRT monitor (and a broken switch mode power
supply in general) there might be capacitors charged with rectified
mains voltage (about 170V DC in 120V countries, about 325V in 230V
countries) that due to the fault won't get discharged.

--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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RE: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Raj Wurttemberg
> C64 and C128 already has S-video output, but the name S-video wasn't
invented until later so it goes by other names in documentation written back
in the days.
> .
> .
> .
> Beware that on a broken CRT monitor (and a broken switch mode power supply
in general) there might be capacitors charged with rectified mains voltage
(about 170V DC in 120V countries, about 325V in 230V
> countries) that due to the fault won't get discharged.

> -------

Thanks for the e-mail Mia.   I used to repair CRTs on RS422 terminals a
loooong time ago so I am very familiar with the high voltages from the CRT
and the capacitors.  I have an improvised 'discharge' device I made last
year and it has served me well with many loud pops... going straight to
ground and NOT though me. hahaha!

No worries, I only use high quality capacitors on my Commodore equipment..
Panasonic, Vishay, TDK, Nichicon, etc.  Funny thing is that the last
capacitor that popped on my 1902 was a ceramic. I'm going to make that
circuit I linked in my previous e-mail and see how it goes. If it goes well,
I might just have a PCB made.  I just installed KiCad. :)   I was just
curious if any of you had done any work on a device to have the Commodore
equipment output HDMI.  Thanks again!

Thanks,
/Raj


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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

traymond160
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg
I reside in the USA I bought a small LCD flat screen TV it displays okay from a breadbin C64. Using a Vic-20 Was fine but I plugged in a cartridge this didn't display, worked fine on a C= 1084 monitor.  What's the issue with the cartridge not displaying on a modern flat screen LCD?
Cartridges on my C64 display just fine on this LCD, strange.
Terry Raymond




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: didier derny <[hidden email]>
Date: 7/17/18 1:47 AM (GMT-07:00)
Subject: Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

to replace commodore screens  I bought this tv:   Samsung T24E390EW


paid 159 euro from amazon...  (beware appears sometimes on amazon at higer prices [280])


support:
- composite
- composant
- 2 x hdmi
- 1  peritel (scart)
- vga

has a usb connector

till now it works fine with all the machine I've tested   (commodore vic20, c64, plus4, c116 / tandy  coco, mc10 / apple II / thomson mo5 / my PC)



On 17/07/2018 08:12, Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud) wrote:
Hallo Raj,


 Have any of you done any work on a device to convert the output from
a C64 to s-video or even better, HDMI?
My 40 inch TV has composite video input and it is just one year old. Quite weird to play Paradroid on it :) Some years ago I bought a second hand 16 inch TV with SCART, A/V and VGA input because my Philips CM8233 (IIRC) did POOF as well. Never regretted that buy.

So before starting tinkering, you should think about this option as well. 


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de 
geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te 
nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit 
e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken. 
Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige 
overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij 
overgebrachte virussen.

APG Groep N.V. is gevestigd te Heerlen en is ingeschreven in het 
handelsregister van de Kamer van Koophandel Limburg onder nummer 14099617


The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. 
It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. 
If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by 
return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its 
contents to any person. We don't accept liability for any errors, omissions, 
delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a 
result of e-mail transmission.

APG Groep N.V. is registered in the trade register of the Chamber 
of Commerce Limburg, The Netherlands, registration number: 14099617



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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

MiaM
Den Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:43:09 -0600 skrev traymond160
<[hidden email]>:
> I reside in the USA I bought a small LCD flat screen TV it displays
> okay from a breadbin C64. Using a Vic-20 Was fine but I plugged in a
> cartridge this didn't display, worked fine on a C= 1084 monitor.
>  What's the issue with the cartridge not displaying on a modern flat
> screen LCD?Cartridges on my C64 display just fine on this LCD,
> strange.Terry Raymond

Many VIC 20 cartridges starts with the picture decentered to the
upper left corner, and needs to be moved with the cursor keys.

You might try the cursor keys "in blind" and see if that makes the more
modern screen show a picture.

--
(\_/) Copy the bunny to your mails to help
(O.o) him achieve world domination.
(> <) Come join the dark side.
/_|_\ We have cookies.

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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Anders Carlsson
Mia Magnusson wrote:

> Many VIC 20 cartridges starts with the picture decentered to the upper
> left corner, and needs to be moved with the cursor keys.

That only really applies in case Terry Raymond has a PAL VIC-20, which I
strongly doubt as he resides in the USA.

The reason the picture appears in the upper left corner is because the
NTSC version of the VIC-I chip has different value ranges for screen
positioning compared to the ranges used by the PAL version of the same
chip. The Kernel contains default values suitable for respective video
chip, but many cartridges - both Commodore's own and third party ones -
don't trust the built-in firmware ROMs and instead hard code the default
settings of the VIC-I chip.

As long as you run a cartridge on a NTSC VIC-20, you usually won't
notice a difference because the values in the cartridge ROM may be
identical to the ones in the Kernel. Sometimes the number of columns or
rows, or positioning the screen is slightly changed.

However when you put in the same cartridge in a PAL VIC-20, the code
will tell the VIC-I chip to configure the screen far into the upper left
corner. Commodore themselves realized they had made a boo-boo and
usually included a routine that lets you move the screen into visible
area. Third party manufacturers didn't care. Many of the latter
cartridges have been patched to exist in PAL version (just a different
set of VIC-I configuration values) or even read the values from Kernel
where applicable.

But back to Terry's problem, if the BASIC screen displays correct both
on the LCD and a 1084, but cartridges won't display on the LCD but still
work on the 1084, something weird is going on. Off-hand, I can't think
of what could cause that.

Best regards

Anders Carlsson


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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

traymond160
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg
Hi Anders,
Yes mine is NTSC
I wasn't saying the picture was out of place, just not displaying anything on a modern flat screen NTSC TV using the monitor connection (on the Vic) which is the Din connector!
I assume the proper video converter would fix this.
The last message mentioned the converters.
There is a place in the USA in Florida that has a converter, I need to see if it's still available and I will post that info here for others.
Terry




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Anders Carlsson <[hidden email]>
Date: 7/18/18 11:41 AM (GMT-07:00)
Subject: Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Mia Magnusson wrote:

> Many VIC 20 cartridges starts with the picture decentered to the upper
> left corner, and needs to be moved with the cursor keys.

That only really applies in case Terry Raymond has a PAL VIC-20, which I
strongly doubt as he resides in the USA.

The reason the picture appears in the upper left corner is because the
NTSC version of the VIC-I chip has different value ranges for screen
positioning compared to the ranges used by the PAL version of the same
chip. The Kernel contains default values suitable for respective video
chip, but many cartridges - both Commodore's own and third party ones -
don't trust the built-in firmware ROMs and instead hard code the default
settings of the VIC-I chip.

As long as you run a cartridge on a NTSC VIC-20, you usually won't
notice a difference because the values in the cartridge ROM may be
identical to the ones in the Kernel. Sometimes the number of columns or
rows, or positioning the screen is slightly changed.

However when you put in the same cartridge in a PAL VIC-20, the code
will tell the VIC-I chip to configure the screen far into the upper left
corner. Commodore themselves realized they had made a boo-boo and
usually included a routine that lets you move the screen into visible
area. Third party manufacturers didn't care. Many of the latter
cartridges have been patched to exist in PAL version (just a different
set of VIC-I configuration values) or even read the values from Kernel
where applicable.

But back to Terry's problem, if the BASIC screen displays correct both
on the LCD and a 1084, but cartridges won't display on the LCD but still
work on the 1084, something weird is going on. Off-hand, I can't think
of what could cause that.

Best regards

Anders Carlsson


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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Anders Carlsson
Terry Raymond wrote:

> Yes mine is NTSC
> I wasn't saying the picture was out of place, just not displaying
> anything on a modern flat screen NTSC TV using the monitor connection
> (on the Vic) which is the Din connector!
> I assume the proper video converter would fix this.
> The last message mentioned the converters.
> There is a place in the USA in Florida that has a converter, I need to
> see if it's still available and I will post that info here for others.

Ok, trying to sort out your issues and whether a composite/S-Video to
HDMI converter would make any difference:

Commodore 1084
VIC-20 displays correctly with BASIC and cartridges (composite video, I
presume)
C64 displays correctly with BASIC and cartridges (composite or S-video,
not entirely obvious)

Flat screen LCD TV
VIC-20 does not display at all neither with BASIC (*) nor cartridges
C64 still displays correctly with BASIC and cartridges

(*) Previously you wrote "Using a VIC-20 was fine" which lead me to the
conclusion there was a difference between BASIC and using cartridges,
but in your latest post you state neither works.

Is that the same cable on both? While the C64 kinda-sorta has S-video
out of the box on nearly all machines except the very first ones, it
also can output the same type of composite video the VIC-20 natively
does. (And yes, you can make internal modifications to the VIC to get
S-video too, but that likely is not the case here).

Would the video on the C64 have a more steady frame rate which helps the
LCD TV to sync? I think the signal strength should be the same on both,
about 0.7 Vpp IIRC.

Are those the only two displays you have access to, no additional modern
TVs?

Perhaps a converter to HDMI would make a difference, if it is more
forgiving on input signals.

Good luck!

Anders Carlsson



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RE: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)
Hallo Terry, Anders,


> ... the same type of composite video the VIC-20 natively does.

Just popped up in my mind: I remember having troubles with the older VIC-20 boards regarding the video, even on my CM8233. At the end I had to use another output on the 5-pins connector then the one normally used for the newer VIC-20s and the C64. This was one of the reasons I hardly use the older boards. The second reason is that I can use the same power supply for the newer boards as for my C64.

Does the above ring a bell?


Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards, Ruud Baltissen

www.Baltissen.org




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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

Anders Carlsson
Ruud Baltissen wrote:

> I remember having troubles with the older VIC-20 boards regarding the
> video, even on my CM8233. At the end I had to use another output on
> the 5-pins connector then the one normally used for the newer VIC-20s
> and the C64. This was one of the reasons I hardly use the older
> boards. The second reason is that I can use the same power supply for
> the newer boards as for my C64.

Yes, the VIC-20 has composite video output on two pins, the regular pin
4 (marked as Video Low in some manuals) and an extra signal on pin 5
(marked as Video High). I think the Video High is a stronger signal
(voltage?) meant for the RF modulator though it also has its own 5/6V
power source in the same cable.

On newer VIC-20CR models, there no longer would be any difference
between Video Low and Video High, which would explain if your newer VIC
worked better on your monitors and TVs.

Wiring a cable with pins 2, 3, 5 instead of 2, 3, 4 would make it
specific to early VIC-20, for displays where the Low signal may be too
weak. I'll admit my two-prong VIC-20 with an early (?) 6561E video chip
is firmly boxed away and for daily use I'm strictly using DIN-style CR
models - both PAL and NTSC, but I might bring out my old two-prong and
test with a regular composite video cable on various displays to
determine if those yield a display or not.

On a partly related note, I've got a PAL model CGL M5 (UK branded
version of the Japanese computer Sord M5). That one displays a colour
picture on most CRTs and some LCDs, except some otherwise excellent
Samsung LCD TVs capable of handling both PAL and NTSC, but which are
unable to produce colours from the M5 composite video signal. Then again
I used to have a genuine Sord M5 in PAL version, which displayed in B&W
on my 1084 but in colour on other displays so it could very well be a
case of signal strength and whether the TV/monitor accepts very weak
signals. At first I thought the Sord branded machine was Japanese NTSC
but since it displayed in colour on TVs otherwise known to NOT handle
NTSC composite video, that could not be the case.

Best regards

Anders Carlsson





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Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?

traymond160
Hi Anders,

That's okay please excuse my terrible memory.

Just using normal  basic displays fine,
adding a cartridge powering on No display. (With modern TV)
BTW my Vic may be the latter board it has the Din connector to use a Commodore monitor cable, Im not using the modulator connection.

I thought something was wrong with the computer so I swapped back to my working 1084S (stereo) monitor with cartridge plugged in that displays 
and powers up just fine.

Again I'm in the USA using NTSC video 🙂 

So something there that the signal is different on these modern TV's 
I see what you're saying wasnt supported yet on the Vic-20.

I do have the earlier VIC-20 that has the funky 2pin power connector I might see what it does with a cartridge, etc on my modern flat screen TV.

Thank you,

Terry R.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 3:19 AM Anders Carlsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ruud Baltissen wrote:

> I remember having troubles with the older VIC-20 boards regarding the
> video, even on my CM8233. At the end I had to use another output on
> the 5-pins connector then the one normally used for the newer VIC-20s
> and the C64. This was one of the reasons I hardly use the older
> boards. The second reason is that I can use the same power supply for
> the newer boards as for my C64.

Yes, the VIC-20 has composite video output on two pins, the regular pin
4 (marked as Video Low in some manuals) and an extra signal on pin 5
(marked as Video High). I think the Video High is a stronger signal
(voltage?) meant for the RF modulator though it also has its own 5/6V
power source in the same cable.

On newer VIC-20CR models, there no longer would be any difference
between Video Low and Video High, which would explain if your newer VIC
worked better on your monitors and TVs.

Wiring a cable with pins 2, 3, 5 instead of 2, 3, 4 would make it
specific to early VIC-20, for displays where the Low signal may be too
weak. I'll admit my two-prong VIC-20 with an early (?) 6561E video chip
is firmly boxed away and for daily use I'm strictly using DIN-style CR
models - both PAL and NTSC, but I might bring out my old two-prong and
test with a regular composite video cable on various displays to
determine if those yield a display or not.

On a partly related note, I've got a PAL model CGL M5 (UK branded
version of the Japanese computer Sord M5). That one displays a colour
picture on most CRTs and some LCDs, except some otherwise excellent
Samsung LCD TVs capable of handling both PAL and NTSC, but which are
unable to produce colours from the M5 composite video signal. Then again
I used to have a genuine Sord M5 in PAL version, which displayed in B&W
on my 1084 but in colour on other displays so it could very well be a
case of signal strength and whether the TV/monitor accepts very weak
signals. At first I thought the Sord branded machine was Japanese NTSC
but since it displayed in colour on TVs otherwise known to NOT handle
NTSC composite video, that could not be the case.

Best regards

Anders Carlsson





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RetroTink 2x (Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?)

Per Olofsson-2
In reply to this post by Raj Wurttemberg
I'm late to the party as I don't read cbm-hackers daily, but I received a RetroTink 2x from the first batch the other week. We used it together with the OSSC at Datastorm 2018 to great success. I'll be doing more tests with it now that I'm back home, but a quick summary:

• Composite/S-video/component to HDMI
* Pass through (240/288p), line double (480/576p), or filtered (emulator style, bleh)
* PAL & NTSC
* Virtually lag free at ~300µs latency (~5 scanlines)
* Can be daisy chained in pass through mode into an OSSC via a VGA adapter, to add scanlines and other tweaks
* Low pass filter on the input gives the image a fairly smooth look, but individual hires pixels are visible.

If the device could be flashed to default to s-video on power up and the LPF brought down a notch, I'd declare it near perfect. Even so, I'd say this is clearly the best option available for upscaling the C64 right now.

It'll be sold for £79 at videogameperfection.com and you can read the specs at http://www.retrotink.com/

VGP's review: https://www.videogameperfection.com/2018/07/23/retrotink-the-verdict/

--
  Per Olofsson
  [hidden email]

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RE: RetroTink 2x (Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?)

Raj Wurttemberg
Thank you Per Olofsson.  Good information.  Cool to know that you are still out there after all of these years. :)

Thanks,
/Raj

-----Original Message-----
From: Per Olofsson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 3:53 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RetroTink 2x (Re: Commodore to S-Video or HDMI video?)

I'm late to the party as I don't read cbm-hackers daily, but I received a RetroTink 2x from the first batch the other week. We used it together with the OSSC at Datastorm 2018 to great success. I'll be doing more tests with it now that I'm back home, but a quick summary:

• Composite/S-video/component to HDMI
* Pass through (240/288p), line double (480/576p), or filtered (emulator style, bleh)
* PAL & NTSC
* Virtually lag free at ~300µs latency (~5 scanlines)
* Can be daisy chained in pass through mode into an OSSC via a VGA adapter, to add scanlines and other tweaks
* Low pass filter on the input gives the image a fairly smooth look, but individual hires pixels are visible.

If the device could be flashed to default to s-video on power up and the LPF brought down a notch, I'd declare it near perfect. Even so, I'd say this is clearly the best option available for upscaling the C64 right now.

It'll be sold for £79 at videogameperfection.com and you can read the specs at http://www.retrotink.com/

VGP's review: https://www.videogameperfection.com/2018/07/23/retrotink-the-verdict/

--
  Per Olofsson
  [hidden email]


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