CP/M disks

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CP/M disks

Ruud
Hallo allemaal,


First, the CP/M disks for the CBMs can be found here:

    http://www.baltissen.org/temp/8050cpm.zip


Then FYI: except starting up a boot disk or a program I didn't do
very much with CP/M on the C128. Therefore quite some lack of
knowledge. Please, bear with it :)

Three question:
- I more or less always thought that C128 CP/M disks were a mix of
Commodore's GCR format and one or another MFM format. But the first
disk I tried to create an image of turned out fine. Second disk, a
CP/M boot disk: fine as well. third disk, another boot disk: nope.
But as D64 it turned out fine as well. The question: what is normal?

- Is there a quick way to find out whether I'm dealing with a D64 or
a D71? I know tell the program to treat the disk as a D71. It first
reads track 1 and then 36. If that goes wrong I know enough. But the
time consuming part is Ctrl-C and resetting the ZF by removing and
reinserting the USB plug.

- Opencbm provides the tools for displaying the directory. But not
for CP/M disk AFAIk. Neither CbmXfer. Unless I overlooked something.
I have run and still run in various CP/M disks were the text on the
labels faded away. Is there a tool to see their director?


Many thanks in advance!


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: CP/M disks

Giacomo Vernoni
> On 03 Jun 2017, at 12:34, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> - I more or less always thought that C128 CP/M disks were a mix of
> Commodore's GCR format and one or another MFM format. But the first
> disk I tried to create an image of turned out fine. Second disk, a
> CP/M boot disk: fine as well. third disk, another boot disk: nope.
> But as D64 it turned out fine as well. The question: what is normal?

The Commodore 64 had a CP/M cartridge, but it needed the CP/M disks in GCR format for the 1541.
Maybe you have some disks for the C64 version of CP/M?

Giacomo
www.oldcomputr.com


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Re: CP/M disks

Ruud
Hallo Oldcomputr,


> Maybe you have some disks for the C64 version of CP/M?

I have D64 and D71 disks marked '128' by the previous user. Even
some original CP/M disks appear to be single sided.


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: CP/M disks

Steve Gray
In reply to this post by Ruud
If the CP/M virtual disk is in a PRG or SEQ file that can be read I would be able to add a directory viewer to CBM-Transfer (aka cbmxfer). I don't think the CP/M disk structure is too complicated.
However, if like the ones in your zip file, it uses a REL file then I won't be able to (easily) support it. In such cases I think you could probably find the CP/M directory sectors using a regular Hex Editor/Viewer. CBM-Transfer has a hex viewer, which has options to view in a more cbm-friendly format. Or, for windows I recommend the "HxD" editor.

Steve



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 6:34 AM
Subject: CP/M disks

Hallo allemaal,


First, the CP/M disks for the CBMs can be found here:



Then FYI: except starting up a boot disk or a program I didn't do
very much with CP/M on the C128. Therefore quite some lack of
knowledge. Please, bear with it :)

Three question:
- I more or less always thought that C128 CP/M disks were a mix of
Commodore's GCR format and one or another MFM format. But the first
disk I tried to create an image of turned out fine. Second disk, a
CP/M boot disk: fine as well. third disk, another boot disk: nope.
But as D64 it turned out fine as well. The question: what is normal?

- Is there a quick way to find out whether I'm dealing with a D64 or
a D71? I know tell the program to treat the disk as a D71. It first
reads track 1 and then 36. If that goes wrong I know enough. But the
time consuming part is Ctrl-C and resetting the ZF by removing and
reinserting the USB plug.

- Opencbm provides the tools for displaying the directory. But not
for CP/M disk AFAIk. Neither CbmXfer. Unless I overlooked something.
I have run and still run in various CP/M disks were the text on the
labels faded away. Is there a tool to see their director?


Many thanks in advance!


--
 
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: CP/M disks

william degnan


From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 6:34 AM
Subject: CP/M disks

Hallo allemaal,


First, the CP/M disks for the CBMs can be found here:



Then FYI: except starting up a boot disk or a program I didn't do
very much with CP/M on the C128. Therefore quite some lack of
knowledge. Please, bear with it :)



I assumed when you said you had 8050 format disks that these were B Series CP/M 86 disks.  B owners with 8088 co-processor daughterboards installed that is.
BIll
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Re: CP/M disks

Craig Taylor-2
In reply to this post by Steve Gray
For the 128 cpm 71 and 41 disks they're in GCR by default.  The 128 can read MFM com disks but by default it's GCR.

If I remember right the directory information starts on track 1 instead of 18.  I forget how the user spaces are done.  Some disks have both track 18 and 1 populated for e.g. booting .



On Jun 3, 2017 3:02 PM, "Steve Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If the CP/M virtual disk is in a PRG or SEQ file that can be read I would be able to add a directory viewer to CBM-Transfer (aka cbmxfer). I don't think the CP/M disk structure is too complicated.
However, if like the ones in your zip file, it uses a REL file then I won't be able to (easily) support it. In such cases I think you could probably find the CP/M directory sectors using a regular Hex Editor/Viewer. CBM-Transfer has a hex viewer, which has options to view in a more cbm-friendly format. Or, for windows I recommend the "HxD" editor.

Steve



From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 6:34 AM
Subject: CP/M disks

Hallo allemaal,


First, the CP/M disks for the CBMs can be found here:



Then FYI: except starting up a boot disk or a program I didn't do
very much with CP/M on the C128. Therefore quite some lack of
knowledge. Please, bear with it :)

Three question:
- I more or less always thought that C128 CP/M disks were a mix of
Commodore's GCR format and one or another MFM format. But the first
disk I tried to create an image of turned out fine. Second disk, a
CP/M boot disk: fine as well. third disk, another boot disk: nope.
But as D64 it turned out fine as well. The question: what is normal?

- Is there a quick way to find out whether I'm dealing with a D64 or
a D71? I know tell the program to treat the disk as a D71. It first
reads track 1 and then 36. If that goes wrong I know enough. But the
time consuming part is Ctrl-C and resetting the ZF by removing and
reinserting the USB plug.

- Opencbm provides the tools for displaying the directory. But not
for CP/M disk AFAIk. Neither CbmXfer. Unless I overlooked something.
I have run and still run in various CP/M disks were the text on the
labels faded away. Is there a tool to see their director?


Many thanks in advance!


--
 
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen







      Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list



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Re: CP/M disks

MiaM
In reply to this post by Ruud
Den Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:14:50 +0200 skrev [hidden email]:
> Hallo Oldcomputr,
>
>
> > Maybe you have some disks for the C64 version of CP/M?
>
> I have D64 and D71 disks marked '128' by the previous user. Even
> some original CP/M disks appear to be single sided.

The C128 were shipped with a CP/M disk that were usable in a 1541. Back
in the days I had a 128 with a 1541 and I remember that I booted CP/M.
However it took soooo much time to do anything due to the bad disk
performance so I never used it for anything interesting. The fact that
no programming tools (afaik) för CP/M were shipped with C128 didn't
help either.

IIRC the disk that shipped with C128 were a flippy. Thus you should
probably have two D64 images from that disk.

Remember that when the C128 started to ship there were afaik no new
disk drives. It took a while for the 1570 to be in the shops, and
the 1571 took even longer. Therefore the disk with C128 CP/M must have
been 1541 GCR compatible.

Re CP/M disks - it would probably be a good idea to add D64, D71 e.t.c.
support to some already existing application that's used to
manipulate/read CP/M disk images.

IMHO Commodore were bad at providing the kind of required transfer
software. Not only did C128 not ship with some transfer program for
moving data between CP/M and CBM disks, but on Amiga in Workbench 1.3
(and possibly also 1.2) there were a program included to read/write
ms-dos diskettes, but it were hardcoded to use the third drive and
afaik also hardcoded to use a 40 track (360k) drive, making the program
useless to most users.

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Re: CP/M disks

Rhialto
On Sun 04 Jun 2017 at 03:39:00 +0200, Mia Magnusson wrote:
> IMHO Commodore were bad at providing the kind of required transfer
> software. Not only did C128 not ship with some transfer program for
> moving data between CP/M and CBM disks, but on Amiga in Workbench 1.3
> (and possibly also 1.2) there were a program included to read/write
> ms-dos diskettes, but it were hardcoded to use the third drive and
> afaik also hardcoded to use a 40 track (360k) drive, making the program
> useless to most users.

Now that you mention this a very faint light is burning somewhere far
away. Anyway, because of the lack of proper transver  software,
"someone" made a MeSsydos file system Handler...
Quite a useful piece of software, even if I say it myself :-)

-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/xs4all.nl    -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.

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Re: CP/M disks

Ruud
In reply to this post by william degnan
Hallo William,


> ... that these were B Series CP/M 86 disks.

Completely forgot that these can exist as well.


Anyway, I found some more 8050 CP/M disks but I think that I wait
until I have gone through all my disks.


--
   
Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet, Ruud Baltissen
www.Baltissen.org







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Re: CP/M disks

Greg King-3
In reply to this post by Ruud
On 2017-06-03 6:34 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> - Opencbm provides the tools for displaying the directory. But not
> for CP/M disks, AFAIk. Neither CbmXfer. Unless I overlooked something.
> I have run and still run into various CP/M disks where the text on the
> labels faded away. Is there a tool to see their directories?

http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/

It can read C64 D64 and C128 D81 (and other) disk images.  But, it can't
read relative files.

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Re: CP/M disks

Marko Mäkelä-4
On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 08:40:44AM -0400, Greg King wrote:

>On 2017-06-03 6:34 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>- Opencbm provides the tools for displaying the directory. But not
>>for CP/M disks, AFAIk. Neither CbmXfer. Unless I overlooked something.
>>I have run and still run into various CP/M disks where the text on the
>>labels faded away. Is there a tool to see their directories?
>
>http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/
>
>It can read C64 D64 and C128 D81 (and other) disk images.  But, it
>can't read relative files.

I implemented support for the Commodore 128 CP/M GCR file system in
cbmconvert 2.0.5.1 (June 1999). The 1541, 1571 and 1581 disk images are
supported.  The most recent release is 2.1.3 from 2006.

http://iki.fi/~msmakela/8bit/cbmconvert/

        Marko

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Re: CP/M disks

Spiro Trikaliotis
Hello Marko,

* On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 11:29:31PM +0300 Marko Mäkelä wrote:
 
> I implemented support for the Commodore 128 CP/M GCR file system in
> cbmconvert 2.0.5.1 (June 1999).

Where can I find documentation abouth the CP/M GCR file system? Somehow,
I am not able to find such a thing, although I believe I once had it.

Regards,
Spiro.

--
Spiro R. Trikaliotis
http://www.trikaliotis.net/

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Re: CP/M disks

Marko Mäkelä
Hi Spiro,

>* On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 11:29:31PM +0300 Marko Mäkelä wrote:
>
>> I implemented support for the Commodore 128 CP/M GCR file system in
>> cbmconvert 2.0.5.1 (June 1999).
>
>Where can I find documentation abouth the CP/M GCR file system?
>Somehow, I am not able to find such a thing, although I believe I once
>had it.

If I remember correctly, I reverse engineered it back then, maybe based
on some sample disk images and generic documentation of the CP/M file
system or its spiritual successor, the FAT. I may be mistaken, but it
could be that only a fixed amount of sectors per track is being used.  
See the function CpmTransTable() in image.c. I must admit that I cannot
follow it now.  Too bad I did not even use a version control system for
this piece of software back then.

        Marko

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