6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

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6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

MicahBly
Apologies in advance for not responding to the original thread, but I joined the ML too late to have an email to respond to. I've been following it on the email archive. 

It seemed to be making really good progress, are there any updates to share? 

I also wanted to ask this: the 6502 is a 1Mhz chip, the 6509 is a 2Mhz chip... what are the expectations around compatibility, from that point of view? It will run, but just slowly (but now maybe we can read the SID registers)? Sorry if this is a dumb question. 

Micah


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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

Gerrit Heitsch
On 04/16/2018 05:23 PM, Micah Bly wrote:

> Apologies in advance for not responding to the original thread, but I
> joined the ML too late to have an email to respond to. I've been
> following it on the email archive.
>
> It seemed to be making really good progress, are there any updates to
> share?
>
> I also wanted to ask this: the 6502 is a 1Mhz chip, the 6509 is a 2Mhz
> chip... what are the expectations around compatibility, from that point
> of view? It will run, but just slowly (but now maybe we can read the SID
> registers)? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

The 6502 comes in different flavours:

6502   1MHz
6502A  2MHz
6502B  3MHz

So just use an A or B type and you're good. These are the max
frequencies, you can always run them slower if you want.

  Gerrit

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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

Jim Brain
In reply to this post by MicahBly
On 4/16/2018 10:23 AM, Micah Bly wrote:
> Apologies in advance for not responding to the original thread, but I
> joined the ML too late to have an email to respond to. I've been
> following it on the email archive.
>
> It seemed to be making really good progress, are there any updates to
> share?
Not yet.

I proved out the design, but during testing, we determined that we
needed to buffer the data lines, as a read from $0 and $1 needs to
bypass the main data bus.

I created a v2 of the board and soldered it up, but I had to stow the
B128 for a bit to get ready for another show, and I won't get it out
until a few weeks from now.  Expect an update then.

Jim

--
Jim Brain
[hidden email]
www.jbrain.com


smf
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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

smf
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch
On 16/04/2018 16:54, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

The 6502 comes in different flavours:

6502   1MHz
6502A  2MHz
6502B  3MHz

I wonder what they called the 8MHz chips?

In there we found a hint at this story from Brian Bagnall's On The Edge:
"""
Although Commodore ran their computers at 1 MHz, Charles Winterble claims they were able to achieve faster speeds with the 6502." We thinned the oxides down and we intentionally did some very high speed versions of that," says Winterble. "One thing MOS [Technology] had going for it was a really good quality oxide. By thinning these gates down, we were able to drive it faster and faster. Then we did selection, in terms of our testing, to pull out the fast ones. We actually made a couple of really hot processors for a chess tournament for somebody. He literally water-cooled it, and he ran it at something like 8 MHz. It was just ridiculous how fast he ran it."

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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

Didier Derny

A guy a scientific in France was playing with 6502

the was sorting them by speed

a good number reached 7Mhz



On 16/04/2018 22:09, smf wrote:
On 16/04/2018 16:54, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

The 6502 comes in different flavours:

6502   1MHz
6502A  2MHz
6502B  3MHz

I wonder what they called the 8MHz chips?

In there we found a hint at this story from Brian Bagnall's On The Edge:
"""
Although Commodore ran their computers at 1 MHz, Charles Winterble claims they were able to achieve faster speeds with the 6502." We thinned the oxides down and we intentionally did some very high speed versions of that," says Winterble. "One thing MOS [Technology] had going for it was a really good quality oxide. By thinning these gates down, we were able to drive it faster and faster. Then we did selection, in terms of our testing, to pull out the fast ones. We actually made a couple of really hot processors for a chess tournament for somebody. He literally water-cooled it, and he ran it at something like 8 MHz. It was just ridiculous how fast he ran it."


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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

Steve Gray
My first computer, an OSI C4P (1MHz standard) could easily be overclocked to 2MHz with a jumper (which I did to mine), and there was also a "GT" option available from factory for 4MHz... all in 1981.

Steve



From: didier derny <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

A guy a scientific in France was playing with 6502
the was sorting them by speed
a good number reached 7Mhz


On 16/04/2018 22:09, smf wrote:
On 16/04/2018 16:54, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

The 6502 comes in different flavours:

6502   1MHz
6502A  2MHz
6502B  3MHz
I wonder what they called the 8MHz chips?
In there we found a hint at this story from Brian Bagnall's On The Edge:
"""
Although Commodore ran their computers at 1 MHz, Charles Winterble claims they were able to achieve faster speeds with the 6502." We thinned the oxides down and we intentionally did some very high speed versions of that," says Winterble. "One thing MOS [Technology] had going for it was a really good quality oxide. By thinning these gates down, we were able to drive it faster and faster. Then we did selection, in terms of our testing, to pull out the fast ones. We actually made a couple of really hot processors for a chess tournament for somebody. He literally water-cooled it, and he ran it at something like 8 MHz. It was just ridiculous how fast he ran it."



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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

MicahBly
In reply to this post by smf
Very cool!

It looks like there are whole series of chess computers using different variants of 6502s. e.g.:
"Novag Constellation 3.6Mhz.
This is a beautiful sensory board that is very sensitive. It can compute 24 moves ahead and solve mate-in-12 problems. The program is a 16Kb one and it also incorporates the CMOS chip technology for energy saving. It has a blitz and tournament level. It runs on 6 1.5V C batteries or you can use an A/C adapter. It can play 40 moves in 2 hours. It has take-back and hint features."

Not sure about the accuracy of that bit in italics, but fascinating. Would be fun to dump that ROM and get it running on a CBMII!

Micah


On Apr 16, 2018, at 3:09 PM, smf <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 16/04/2018 16:54, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:

The 6502 comes in different flavours:

6502   1MHz
6502A  2MHz
6502B  3MHz

I wonder what they called the 8MHz chips?

In there we found a hint at this story from Brian Bagnall's On The Edge:
"""
Although Commodore ran their computers at 1 MHz, Charles Winterble claims they were able to achieve faster speeds with the 6502." We thinned the oxides down and we intentionally did some very high speed versions of that," says Winterble. "One thing MOS [Technology] had going for it was a really good quality oxide. By thinning these gates down, we were able to drive it faster and faster. Then we did selection, in terms of our testing, to pull out the fast ones. We actually made a couple of really hot processors for a chess tournament for somebody. He literally water-cooled it, and he ran it at something like 8 MHz. It was just ridiculous how fast he ran it."



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Re: 6502-as-6509 project: update and question...

MicahBly
In reply to this post by Jim Brain
Thanks for the update Jim. I love the project.

Micah

> On Apr 16, 2018, at 12:04 PM, Jim Brain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I proved out the design, but during testing, we determined that we needed to buffer the data lines, as a read from $0 and $1 needs to bypass the main data bus.
>
> I created a v2 of the board and soldered it up, but I had to stow the B128 for a bit to get ready for another show, and I won't get it out until a few weeks from now.  Expect an update then.
>
> Jim