1541-II mechanisms

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1541-II mechanisms

silverdr-2
Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?

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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Julian Perry
Hello Silverdr,

Monday, September 15, 2014, 12:55:21 AM, you wrote:

> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?


I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
belt-driven.

--
Best regards,
 Julian                            mailto:[hidden email]


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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/14/2014 04:57 PM, Julian Perry wrote:

> Hello Silverdr,
>
> Monday, September 15, 2014, 12:55:21 AM, you wrote:
>
>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
>
>
> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
> belt-driven.

Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
bit when unlocking the drive.

You can replace one with the other, but you need to move the bezel as
well for everything to fit.

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

silverdr-2
On 2014-09-14 at 17:34:18, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:

> >> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
> >> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
> >
> > I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
> > belt-driven.
>
> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
> bit when unlocking the drive.

It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk doesn't pop out.

> You can replace one with the other, but you need to move the bezel as
> well for everything to fit.

Meaning CBM had to design *two* different bezels..

I need to dig deeper then - maybe I can find a belt-driven one and compare. If I don't find - then I'll ask for a hi-res picture of the belt-driven one.

The reason I ask is that I try to design a thing that depends on mechanical layout inside the casing and I - damn it - suspected there will be more, even if all about half a dozen I found so far are the same (the direct driven).

--
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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/14/2014 07:35 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2014-09-14 at 17:34:18, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:
>
>>>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
>>>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
>>>
>>> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
>>> belt-driven.
>>
>> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
>> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
>> bit when unlocking the drive.
>
> It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk doesn't pop out.

Check the mechanism then, might have gotten stuck.



>> You can replace one with the other, but you need to move the bezel as
>> well for everything to fit.
>
> Meaning CBM had to design *two* different bezels..

They did... I once had to take 2 defective 1541-II and make one working
one out of them. That's when I noticed it.


> I need to dig deeper then - maybe I can find a belt-driven one and compare. If I don't find - then I'll ask for a hi-res picture of the belt-driven one.

The belt driven one looks to me like the one used in the 1541C, just
with a different bezel and different wiring.

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

silverdr-2
On 2014-09-14 at 20:03:54, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:

> >>>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
> >>>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
> >>>
> >>> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
> >>> belt-driven.
> >>
> >> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
> >> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
> >> bit when unlocking the drive.
> >
> > It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk
> doesn't pop out.
>
> Check the mechanism then, might have gotten stuck.

I did. There is no mechanism that'd eject the disk.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58002657/cbm/1541-II/2014-09-14%2020.42.39.jpg

I guess it could be in the lower, central part of the photo but the construction there doesn't see /any/ wear at all. Meaning it probably never had anything mounted on it. No moving parts that would have left at least some marks. And the same in all I have..

If you could check if the one that actually does eject the disk looks the same as mine, only with some extra springs and levers? Otherwise that would mean even one more another... But I hope it was only CR that made the difference.

> >> You can replace one with the other, but you need to move the bezel as
> >> well for everything to fit.
> >
> > Meaning CBM had to design *two* different bezels..
>
> They did... I once had to take 2 defective 1541-II and make one working
> one out of them. That's when I noticed it.

> > I need to dig deeper then - maybe I can find a belt-driven one and compare. If I don't find
> - then I'll ask for a hi-res picture of the belt-driven one.
>
> The belt driven one looks to me like the one used in the 1541C, just
> with a different bezel and different wiring.

Thanks for the link to the picture. It doesn't provide enough detail for what I need but the drive looks indeed like those used in later 1541s with lever. Those I should have somewhere so in case I don't find the "-II" I may check the levered version of 1541 to do my comparisons.

--
SD!

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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/14/2014 08:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2014-09-14 at 20:03:54, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:
>
>>>>>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
>>>>>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
>>>>> belt-driven.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
>>>> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
>>>> bit when unlocking the drive.
>>>
>>> It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk
>> doesn't pop out.
>>
>> Check the mechanism then, might have gotten stuck.
>
> I did. There is no mechanism that'd eject the disk.
>
> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58002657/cbm/1541-II/2014-09-14%2020.42.39.jpg

That would be a third mechanism for the 1541-II then... The direct drive
I know is made by Chinon and has that eject feature.

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

silverdr-2
On 2014-09-14 at 21:12:50, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:

> >>>>>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
> >>>>>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
> >>>>> belt-driven.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
> >>>> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
> >>>> bit when unlocking the drive.
> >>>
> >>> It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk  
> >> doesn't pop out.
> >>
> >> Check the mechanism then, might have gotten stuck.
> >
> > I did. There is no mechanism that'd eject the disk.
> >
> > http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58002657/cbm/1541-II/2014-09-14%2020.42.39.jpg 
>  
> That would be a third mechanism for the 1541-II then... The direct drive
> I know is made by Chinon and has that eject feature.

The ones here have only what I'd call a provision for such feature. So there is *at least* three different drives that sit in 1541-II

Those like mine:

http://www.nightfallcrew.com/wp-content/gallery/commodore-disk-drive-1541-ii-boxed/IMG_6278.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/siili/cbm/pics/dtv1541II_1.jpg

The Chinons you mention:

http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Commodore/1541-II_(Kutulu)/05.jpg

http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/blpcs/20121230/pic0081.jpg

http://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardware/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive-rev-7/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive-Rev-7-004.JPG

and the Mitsumi:

http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~schepers/CABLEPIX/1541_II/154121.jpg

http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Commodore/1541-II/03.jpg

And all of them (especially the Chinon on the backside) are mechanically different enough to make it infeasible to handle all of them properly :-(


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SD!

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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Ville Laustela

Interesting stuff. I still haven't solved my problems with the two non-working 1541-II drives (another thread), and I am now looking for a replacement mechanism. I found couple on eBay, but wondered why they all looked different to mine (Mitsumi). I had never thought these drives had different mechs, too.

Can somebody provide pics on how the front panels differ between mechs?

--
Ville Laustela


[hidden email] kirjoitti 14.9.2014 kello 22.39:

> On 2014-09-14 at 21:12:50, Gerrit Heitsch ([hidden email]) wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Do we know exactly what all types of mechanisms the 1541-IIs were
>>>>>>>> equipped with? Were there more than one type (as with the older 1541s)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe there were at least two - one direct drive, the other
>>>>>>> belt-driven.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have one of each. The belt driven one is Newtronics/Mitsumi, the
>>>>>> direct drive is Chinon. The latter is the one where the disk pops out a
>>>>>> bit when unlocking the drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably the other way around as those I have here are direct driven and the disk  
>>>> doesn't pop out.
>>>>
>>>> Check the mechanism then, might have gotten stuck.
>>>
>>> I did. There is no mechanism that'd eject the disk.
>>>
>>> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58002657/cbm/1541-II/2014-09-14%2020.42.39.jpg 
>>
>> That would be a third mechanism for the 1541-II then... The direct drive
>> I know is made by Chinon and has that eject feature.
>
> The ones here have only what I'd call a provision for such feature. So there is *at least* three different drives that sit in 1541-II
>
> Those like mine:
>
> http://www.nightfallcrew.com/wp-content/gallery/commodore-disk-drive-1541-ii-boxed/IMG_6278.jpg
>
> http://www.elisanet.fi/siili/cbm/pics/dtv1541II_1.jpg
>
> The Chinons you mention:
>
> http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Commodore/1541-II_(Kutulu)/05.jpg
>
> http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/blpcs/20121230/pic0081.jpg
>
> http://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardware/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive-rev-7/Commodore-1541-II-Floppy-Drive-Rev-7-004.JPG
>
> and the Mitsumi:
>
> http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~schepers/CABLEPIX/1541_II/154121.jpg
>
> http://bilgisayarlarim.com/Commodore/1541-II/03.jpg
>
> And all of them (especially the Chinon on the backside) are mechanically different enough to make it infeasible to handle all of them properly :-(
>
>
> --  
> SD!
>
>       Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list


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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/14/2014 10:25 PM, Ville Laustela wrote:
>
> Interesting stuff. I still haven't solved my problems with the two non-working 1541-II drives (another thread), and I am now looking for a replacement mechanism. I found couple on eBay, but wondered why they all looked different to mine (Mitsumi). I had never thought these drives had different mechs, too.
>
> Can somebody provide pics on how the front panels differ between mechs?

Yes... What email address would you like a picture that shows the front
of the Chinon and the Newtronics mailed to?

Anyone else?

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Ville Laustela

Could you just post it on somewhere like postimage.org or something and post the link here?

On a related side-note, here is something that I have been working on: http://postimg.org/image/n3kiyyje1/
Far from complete, though (all measurements taken by hand, prety close but the shaft is just a bit too wide to take grip).

--
Ville



Gerrit Heitsch <[hidden email]> kirjoitti 15.9.2014 kello 18.06:

> On 09/14/2014 10:25 PM, Ville Laustela wrote:
>>
>> Interesting stuff. I still haven't solved my problems with the two non-working 1541-II drives (another thread), and I am now looking for a replacement mechanism. I found couple on eBay, but wondered why they all looked different to mine (Mitsumi). I had never thought these drives had different mechs, too.
>>
>> Can somebody provide pics on how the front panels differ between mechs?
>
> Yes... What email address would you like a picture that shows the front of the Chinon and the Newtronics mailed to?
>
> Anyone else?
>
> Gerrit
>
>
>
>      Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/15/2014 05:22 PM, Ville Laustela wrote:
>
> Could you just post it on somewhere like postimage.org or something and post the link here?

Try if that one is working:

http://www11.pic-upload.de/15.09.14/en9fb4uuy1bp.jpg

Top one is Chinon with Eject, bottom one is Newtronics.

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

silverdr-2
In reply to this post by Ville Laustela
 

On 2014-09-14 at 22:34:42, Ville Laustela ([hidden email]) wrote:
>  
> Interesting stuff. I still haven't solved my problems with the two non-working 1541-II  
> drives (another thread), and I am now looking for a replacement mechanism. I found couple  
> on eBay, but wondered why they all looked different to mine (Mitsumi). I had never thought  
> these drives had different mechs, too.

Last night I dug the junk pile much deeper and eventually found the other variants.

>  
> Can somebody provide pics on how the front panels differ between mechs?


If nobody does, then since I have them, I should be able to document the differences soon. At first glance it seems that the main difference from the outside is that with Chinon mech, the surface where the lever goes is recessed, whereas on the ones I had before, the lever is placed on the main surface. The lever itself is different too.

--  
SD!

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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Uffe Jakobsen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gerrit Heitsch


On 2014-09-15 17:38, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>
> Try if that one is working:
>
> http://www11.pic-upload.de/15.09.14/en9fb4uuy1bp.jpg
>
> Top one is Chinon with Eject, bottom one is Newtronics.
>

I can confirm that Gerrit's observations about the front/mechanics
relation matches with the six 1541-II drives that I have at hand here
right now.

PS: As a side note I can add that the Mitsumi/Newtronics lever mechanism
is preferred by the C64 Disk Transfer (and preservation) Team - simply
because its lever mechanism is all metal - where parts of the Chinon
lever mechanism is made from platsic. The Chinon typically lever wears
down after 5000-10000 disks (15000 if you are careful)

/Uffe






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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/15/2014 11:04 PM, Uffe Jakobsen wrote:

>
>
> On 2014-09-15 17:38, Gerrit Heitsch wrote:
>>
>> Try if that one is working:
>>
>> http://www11.pic-upload.de/15.09.14/en9fb4uuy1bp.jpg
>>
>> Top one is Chinon with Eject, bottom one is Newtronics.
>>
>
> I can confirm that Gerrit's observations about the front/mechanics
> relation matches with the six 1541-II drives that I have at hand here
> right now.
>
> PS: As a side note I can add that the Mitsumi/Newtronics lever mechanism
> is preferred by the C64 Disk Transfer (and preservation) Team - simply
> because its lever mechanism is all metal - where parts of the Chinon
> lever mechanism is made from platsic. The Chinon typically lever wears
> down after 5000-10000 disks (15000 if you are careful)

On the other hands, the Newtronics drives were known for their dying R/W
heads. I have more than one 1541C with a Newtronics drive that is
perfectly OK, just the R/W head has a broken connection somewhere.

So, you just can't win...

  Gerrit



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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Ethan Dicks
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Gerrit Heitsch
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On the other hands, the Newtronics drives were known for their dying R/W
> heads. I have more than one 1541C with a Newtronics drive that is perfectly
> OK, just the R/W head has a broken connection somewhere.

I have a Newtronics drive with a dead head, or that's how it
superficially tests (it displays symptoms consistent with that fault).

Is there anything to do to the mech?  Since there aren't stacks of R/W
heads lying about, presumably one just replaces the entire drive
assembly (or sticks on the shelf as spares for another unit).

-ethan

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Re: 1541-II mechanisms

Gerrit Heitsch
On 09/16/2014 06:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Gerrit Heitsch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On the other hands, the Newtronics drives were known for their dying R/W
>> heads. I have more than one 1541C with a Newtronics drive that is perfectly
>> OK, just the R/W head has a broken connection somewhere.
>
> I have a Newtronics drive with a dead head, or that's how it
> superficially tests (it displays symptoms consistent with that fault).

You can easily check it. Measure the resistance between all 4 leads from
the head. They all need to be in the 2 digit Ohm range. If any of them
is different (usually infinite = open), the R/W head is dead.



> Is there anything to do to the mech?  Since there aren't stacks of R/W
> heads lying about, presumably one just replaces the entire drive
> assembly (or sticks on the shelf as spares for another unit).

Along those lines, yes. Even if you had a spare head, you'd have to
align it after replacing it, otherwise it will only read it's own disks.

I consider a dead R/W head final and use the whole drive for spare parts.

  Gerrit



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